I wish I could document the blasted things, as they really -are- super spiff. Having made a set, I can certainly see why they're so irresistable! *sigh*

Gwen

Right panel, Trinity College Chapel Altar, by Hugo van der Goes, 1470's. The military saint has clearly depicted arming points of bright alternating colours - I've never seen anything but a black and white picture. I'd post that for you, but I can only find a photo of his feet and spurs, and can't for the life of me remember which other book the upper torso-head shot is, where you can see the points.

I say Toby can provide you a picture, because last I know of, it was on loan to the National Gallery of Scotland.

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-Dieric Bouts, at the neck of a doublet (1462)
-Durer, on a mantle (1498, might be a plied cord)
-Trinity College, altarpiece, arming points (Flemish, Memling(?), circa 1475)
-Paston letters (ambiguous reference, mid 15th C.)
-Instructions for making multicoloured fingerbraided cord (1475)

So does the sum of this information equal "sufficient documentation" to allow multicoloured points to be used for pointing men's clothing?

Gwen

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For us, the evidence is inconclusive for pointing clothing, but Bob's latest contribution would certainly be enough for us to justify using them on armour. Maybe Jeffrey would be happy with coloured points for his armour? Hmmm, I'll have to ask him.....

Gwen

Royal wardrobe account show an entry for "A groos pointes of sylk of divers colours; xxiiij laces of silk of divers colours;..." So another ambiguous reference I'm afraid!

As for evidence in art, I think we have to take a moment to consider the artist, as clothing points are such a small thing, and lets face it, very often not seen anyway, that the artist could be forgiven for not attempting to capture the design of any of the laces. (Some are really quite intricate!) The same is true of purse strings and trimmings - so often painted as one colour, yet many surviving examples have two colour laces.

Personally, I think that the fact that we do know of two manuscripts for the period giving instructions for making multi-coloured laces should 'allow' us to use them as clothing points for the period, so long as they are made to the instructions given. But perhaps thats just me!

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In the wardrobe accounts, are the points listed separately or with a group of specific items?

Jenn

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I'm -way- past the point where I would make the call to use them or bar them for any group other than my own. As I freely admit, they are dead sexy, and the fact that I took the time to make a multi-coloured set for "He Who Must Wear The Flashiest Kit" shows how much I sit on the fence about the issue. I can easily see them being THE late 15th C. fashion accessory for men, along with an appropriately ridiculous hat.

Besides which, let's face it- I have yet to replace Jeff's cotton velvet and fake fur pleated coat, so I'm hardly one to be dictating standards to anyone!! I've promised Jeff a complete overhaul of everything he owns in time for the July jousts, so who knows- perhaps that overhaul will include a set of sexy 2 colour points along with the new pleated coat, doublets, etc.

Gina, are there suggestions for colour combos? I like and usually make the "Square lace of 5 bowes"- is that listed as one or two colour? How about the "lace of 8 bowes? If I do make him a set, I was thinking I might do that one for Jeff so it would be different than Tobys (which is 5 bowes).

And sorry - must correct the lace for hats - this is a multicolour lace in Tollemache, whereas Harley is incomplete! oops!

Gwen, the 'square' lace you're referring to is named as 'A round lace of five bows' (Tollemache=round lace commyn)This is a single colour lace, no colours specified. However, two laces that are made with the same movements are two colour - the 'lace baston' and the 'lace endented' (there is also a lace endented which uses 8 loops, by the way) - neither of which specifies colours.

Of eight loop braids - of which there are 9 in Harley 2320, more in Tollemache, none are called simply a lace of 8 bowes, but I assume your doing the one which looks like a cord? (a gorgeous lace!) Again, no colours are specified in Harley, a quick skim through Tolemache and I can't find any colours specified there either.

The only one specified in both is the 'lace pen powerer' or 'penne powne', which states the colours green, white, red and black. It a great lace, very complicated using 16 loops and two people.

Interestingly, later instructions for laces (17th c) state the colours quite often - with red being one of the most popular colours.

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Of eight loop braids - of which there are 9 in Harley 2320, more in Tollemache, none are called simply a lace of 8 bowes, but I assume your doing the one which looks like a cord?
Yes, it looks plyed but is really a finger braid. It takes me a while to get the rhythym on this pattern, I usually feel like I'm doing it using someone else's fingers for the whole first one. I don't know why but it's like my brain and my fingers won't communicate properly. Greene Dorge was even worse- I did some and swear I almost had a seizure! I can't imagine doing a pattern that takes 2 people!!

He'll be the first kid on the block to have them!

I wish I had a pic that showed them better, but here you go:

The thing is, this lace is one of the constants - it is used all over the world, and goes right through the periods. Its seen on early purses, and is in the 17c English instruction manuals. I'm fairly certain it's found just about everywhere that fingerloop braiding is done. So, it probably has lots of names, and as it is square, it does make much more sense really.

Just looking at it (without seeing the ends) it also looks like a lucet cord, and an 8 strand plait. So, if the ends are hidden it is very hard to determine which method was used to produce it.

The 8 loop you're doing is called 'a lace bend round'in Harley - there's a 2 person version of this too, and that is like doing a dance, arms all over the place! The hardest part of doing any 2 person braid is the tension, as you'll both have a slightly different way of working. If the tension is vastly different, it really messes up the braid.

Charlotte - they look terrific!

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It's hard to tell the colours from the image he sent so I'll have to rely on his memory. I'll concur that they sure are thick though- they almost look like sash cord! It's an interesting weave too- doesn't look like the 5-bow, nor does it look plyed like the 8 bow "lace bend round". Hmmmmmm, looks like I'll have to do some experimentation with patterns.

So it looks like I'll be making some multi-coloured arming points! Does anyone know where I can get coloured linen/hemp thread of an appropriate weight for braiding?

And Gina, what do you know about thrown braids? I only know how to do one and it's a lot of fun- it's a 2-person braid that makes up really fast and strong. I like it because like rope it can be made up in really long lengths good for utility purposes.

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what do you know about thrown braids?

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Likewise, could you send me the image Toby sent you? It would be interesting to see if I can 'match' it to any of the Harley or Tollemache braids. If they are very butch, they could also be tubular tablet woven, of which there are quite a few examples as purse strings. These can be very strong and 'butch' if needed, and of course the patterns are quite different.

As for your linen for braiding, you should be able to get good braids with a straightforward sewing linen - or the hemp you sell. Although, I know very little of what exactely is required - strength-wise and so on - from a linen or hemp arming point, (sticking as I do to silky things!) you probably know much more!
Gina

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Originally posted by Ginevra:

Does anyone know where I can get coloured linen/hemp thread of an appropriate weight for braiding?

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Ya know, Silk is not only much prettier, but it ties and unties so much slicker on points than the other fibers do, so if you're going to all of the trouble and effort to braid them up, you might as well go full-flash & make 'em silk.

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the armynge poyntis muste be made of fyne twyne suche as men make stryngis for crossbowes

I thought the strings for crossbows were made of hemp or linen thread... at least that's what I thought I remembered Iolo saying. Did I miss something??

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I thought the strings for crossbows were made of hemp or linen thread

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I thought so too...
although, at Bosworth the other year, a couple of archers told me that the bow strings in the Mary Rose were red silk - they bought all of our stock. But that isbow strings, not cross bows...
Gina

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Originally posted by Ginevra:
Silk arming points? But the Hastings Mss says

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Oh - arming points. I was thinking doublets - Nevermind.

Actually, the silk will still be prettier, and to medieval fashion plates, it's all about the flash! Then again - they'll get all oily...

[ 04-11-2005: Message edited by: Jeff Johnson ]

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Red -silk- bowstrings? Oh jeez, now I have to find someone to ask about what crossbow strings were made of in the 15th C. Oh wait! I bet Dave Key will know, I'll ask him....(shuffles off to email DK)

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Hastings MS. [f.122b]
Middle English Version

He schal have noo schirte up on him but a dowbelet of ffustean lynyd with satene cutte full of hoolis. The dowblet muste be strongeli boude there the poyntis muste be sette aboute the greet of the arme. And the b ste before and beyhnde and the gussetis of mayle muste be sowid un to the dowbelet in the bought of the arme. And undir the arme the armynge poyntis muste be made of fyne twyne suche as men make stryngis for crossbowes and they muste be trussid small and poyntid as poyntis. Also they muste be wexid with cordeweneris coode. And than they woll neythirrecche nor breke. Also a payre hosyn of stamyn sengill and a peyre of shorte bulwerkis of thynne blanket to put aboute his kneys for chawfygeof his ligherness. Also a payre of shone of thikke cordwene and they muste be frette with smal whipcorde thre knottis up on a corde and thre coordis muste be faste sowid un to the hele of the shoo and fyne cordis in the mydill of the soole of the same shoo and that there be between the frettis of the heele and the frettis of the myddill of the shoo the space of thre fyngris.

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OT: For those that are interested in the Mary Rose.
http://www.maryrose.org/

[ 04-11-2005: Message edited by: Jenn Reed ]

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Originally posted by Jeff Johnson:

Actually, the silk will still be prettier, and to medieval fashion plates, it's all about the flash! Then again - they'll get all oily...

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Gee, thanks everybody - now Jeff is going to want pretty colored linen arming points.

I read how you sewed all those squirrel pelt together and pad stitched them to linen. After that job a set of points should be a walk in the park!

As for the points, I've already made Jeff a set. I made 22 points, about 22 inches long each. (I couldn't remember if he'd wanted 20 points at 22 inches, or 22 points at 20 inches, so I did extra ). I did most of it in front of the tube, and a few at an event. They were 8 bowe, spiral round, very pretty. Then there's adding the aglets, which we made ourselves. Pretty easy, the only trouble is that I don't really watch tv! I had to make up things to watch. And my hands tend to get sore quickly from it - the silk chafing digs in fairly quickly. It took a while to braid them, as I'd only do 4 or 5 a night to rest my hands. I wonder if using linen would be a little easier.

Any hints on keeping the chafing down? At MTA I did two long laces in the afternoon. 8 bowe spirals again, about a yard long each. About halfway through the second lace, I really had to slow down, as my fingers were turning red. I was using a spun silk for those, much tougher on the hands than a reeled. It does seem to depend a lot on the silk I'm using. Spun silk from Halcyon yarn is the worst for me. Jeff's silk points are out of Treenway silk's fine cord (reeled). It's better, but not as good as Trebizond reeled. Trebizond is a little bigger strand, and very very smooth. Unfortunately, it's more expensive than the others, as I'm buying it by the 100m spool.

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Originally posted by Charlotte:
Jeff's silk points are out of Treenway silk's fine cord (reeled). It's better, but not as good as Trebizond reeled. Trebizond is a little bigger strand, and very very smooth. Unfortunately, it's more expensive than the others, as I'm buying it by the 100m spool.

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But aren't I WORTH the added expense?

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Some of it may have to do with your tension. When braiding, try to pull less towards you, and more outwards (ie spreading the arms further). Although ultimately, in order to do alot without any soreness, is to do alot - and build up nice callouses on your fingers! Works a treat, I can tell you!

Also, on your yard long braids, you will find that an extra person pushing the warp up into place puts less stress on your fingers than trying to do them on your own. Getting it right with an extra person doing this takes a bit of time, but is worth it in the end if you're doing laces of this length regularly.

Another thing is the weight and twist of the thread. A medium weight, very low twist silk is very good, whereas something tightly twisted (similar for instance to a perl cotton) or fine (such as sewing weight threads) cut in and there's not alot you can do about this (again, except get weird callouses!).

(I'm also very relieved to hear you didn't sew ALL the pelts together too.. sounded too awesome when I read it! )

Timing - you'll find that you get alot quicker the more you do too! Especially if you warp all of your lengths first.

So, more on multi-coloured points. By coincidence, I saw this painting in a book when looking up something else entirely last night -
My source (Jewellery through the ages) says it's 'Baldassare Estense, The Family of Umberto de' Sacrati' - web gallery of art has it referenced as 'Unknown Master, Italian, Family of Uberto de' Sacrati, 1480s'. Both do at least place it in the Alte Pinakothek, Munich.

web page

Web gallery of art has an even worse quality repro than the source I have, but... I reckon the laces on the front of the woman's dress appear to be red and gold. Anyone, by chance, seen this 'in the flesh' or have a better reproduction and can possibly shed more light?
Gina

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