Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | register | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
»  FireStryker Living History Forum   » History   » Medieval Lifestyles, Activities, and Equipment   » Ave Maria - Pater Noster

UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: Ave Maria - Pater Noster
Gwen
Member
Member # 126

posted 03-08-2001 02:18 PM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I couldn't remember if I had posted these before, but since we should all know our prayers, I thought it might be useful. Our Brother Geoffrey researched these, and he says they're appropriate for 15th C. I thought it was interesting that the tail end of the "Our father" (For thine is the kingdom, etc) is a later addition, as is the tail end of the "Hail Mary" (Holy Mary, Mother of God, etc.).

The literal translation accompanies each prayer.

Gwen
--------------------------------

Pater noster...........Our Father
qui es in caelis,......which art in Heaven
sanctificetur..........hallowed be
nomen tuum.............Thy Name.
Adveniat regnum tuum...Thy kingdom come.
Fiat voluntas tua,.....Thy will be done
sicut in caelo.........as in Heaven
et in terra............also on earth.
Panem nostrum..........our bread
quotidianum............daily
da nobis hodie.........give us today.
Et dimitte nobis.......And forgive us
debita nostra,.........our debts,
sicut et nos...........as also we
dimittimus.............forgive
debitoribus nostris....our debtors.
Et ne nos inducas......And lead us not
in tentationem:........into temptation,
sed libera nos.........but deliver us
a malo. Amen...........from evil. Amen.
-----------------------------------------

Ave Maria,............Hail Mary,
gratia plena;.........full of grace;
Dominus tecum.........The Lord is with thee.
Benedicta tu..........Blessed art thou
in mulieribus,........among women,
et benedictus.........and blessed is
fructus ventris tui...the fruit of thy womb
Jesus. Amen...........Jesus. Amen.

[This message has been edited by Ginevra (edited 03-08-2001).]


Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bob Hurley
Member
Member # 58

posted 03-10-2001 04:25 PM     Profile for Bob Hurley     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thank you, that's a detail I hadn't thought much on.

A question along those lines - how would a paternoster (beads) be handled or carried? Looped over the belt, or would that be disrespectful? I would think that a fighting man in particular would feel uncomfortable without one with him, or would a crucifix be worn instead?


Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
chef de chambre
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 4

posted 03-10-2001 05:57 PM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey Gwen,

Thanks much for posting! If there is anything we all should know by heart and be able to repeat at the drop of a hat it is this, The Pater and the Ave (Where the heck is Caelis - I believe it is pronounced C-H-A-Y L-E-S-S - anyhow?)

------------------
Bob R.


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Anne-Marie
Member
Member # 8

posted 03-11-2001 01:10 PM     Profile for Anne-Marie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
on how to carry your paternoster beads...

as far as I can tell (from Chaucer illos, etc) the beads are worn looped through the belt, or if they're the really longs ones, bandolier style across the chest.

remember they're not a special sunday only kind of toy, they're an every day heavy use item.

also, I have little documentation for prayer beads with crosses (only one picture or so). Most of them appear to be like the greek worry beads...a string of beads loosely knotted with a tassel. (look in the background of the arnolfini marriage)

--AM, who's looking for some nice recycled coral to make hers from


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Gwen
Member
Member # 126

posted 03-11-2001 07:19 PM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Trying to find a definitive answer to Bob's question, as there seems to be 2 schools of thought on the rosary. Aparently, there were 2 factions- those for and those against. Those for saw the rosary as a mystical connection to the Virgin (the advent of the cult of mary). Those opposed saw the rosary as an almost heretical deviation from standard worship.

There are some pretty vulgar period associations with "roses", and "rose gardens", one 14th C. writer composing a poem in celebration of his lover's "brown rose garden"

I'll let you know when I get a better feel for the answer.

Gwen


Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bob Hurley
Member
Member # 58

posted 03-25-2001 05:01 PM     Profile for Bob Hurley     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I discovered the following link:
http://www.pomian.demon.co.uk/rosary.htm

I can't vouch for it's correctness, but it does have some information new to me.


Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Jeff Johnson
Member
Member # 22

posted 03-25-2001 08:55 PM     Profile for Jeff Johnson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The pater noster is a bit different from the one I know. I use supersubtantielum (sp) instead of quotidianum, and "tua, sicut in caelo et in terra" is "tua in terra sicut in coelis".

Everyone should have one in some form.
I have a red horn & bone one (5 decades) with a tassle. As for carry, I used to loop through the belt, but worried that the linen cord would break, so I keep it in my pouch & pull it out occasionally to handle. Ya know, no one has ever noticed or asked what it is.

[This message has been edited by JeffJ (edited 03-25-2001).]


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Anne-Marie
Member
Member # 8

posted 03-26-2001 01:45 AM     Profile for Anne-Marie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Jeff, have you seen the pictures of the 15th century (I think) German rosaries that are a series of rings on a flat band that you flip over? ie not breakable. Seems to be used by hermits, as well as nuns, etc (at least by the pictures).

I can get citation info if you'd like? they looked cool and very hardy...
--AM


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Gwen
Member
Member # 126

posted 03-26-2001 01:59 AM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I hate to be a wet blanket here, but did anyone read this part of the page that Jeff posted?

In the latter part of the 15th Century, reforming churchmen preached against rosaries as well as mistresses as things to be renounced by the pious.

As I stated above, not everyone thought a "rosary" was a good thing, and there was a significant movement against the rosary.

While virtually every single donor and/or Virgin painting contains a rosary, I haven't found a single rosary on a soldier.

Like brocades, velvets, silks and bright, deep colors, we need to consider the use of the Rosary carefully, and NOT assume that every man, woman and child carried one as a matter of course.

Gwen


Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anne-Marie
Member
Member # 8

posted 03-26-2001 10:41 AM     Profile for Anne-Marie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ginevra:
I hate to be a wet blanket here, but did anyone read this part of the page that Jeff posted?

[b] In the latter part of the 15th Century, reforming churchmen preached against rosaries as well as mistresses as things to be renounced by the pious.

As I stated above, not everyone thought a "rosary" was a good thing, and there was a significant movement against the rosary.

While virtually every single donor and/or Virgin painting contains a rosary, I haven't found a single rosary on a soldier.

Like brocades, velvets, silks and bright, deep colors, we need to consider the use of the Rosary carefully, and NOT assume that every man, woman and child carried one as a matter of course.

Gwen[/B]


its an interesting research problem....the rosary object is clearly an object for devotion and the pious. So how common was it for your average medieval person?

--there are mentions of prayer beads as well as illustrations of them on all the pilgrams in Chaucers canterbury tales, which makes sense since they're pilgrams, for gosh sakes .
-In Chaucers ROmance de la Rose, a character passes herself off as a Beguine (a secular religious person)and mentions specifically her "bedes" as part of the description.
--In the late 15th and early 16th century, the rise of the cult of mary turned prayer beads into a devotion particular to her. in 1470, the Confranternity of the Psalter of Jesus and Mary was formed, and by 1476, it had 50,000 members. The only requirements were that you said the rosary once a week and took communion once a month. (from Gribbles _History and Devotion of the Rosary_, 1992). In March 1572, Pope St Pius V granted official recognition to the Rosary

I think its important to separate the concept of "rosary" from "Prayer beads". Prayer beads are clearly devotional items, common enough to be slung through the belt and illustrated hung on the wall next to the bed. What makes prayer beads into a rosary is the prayers you say on them.

Devotional meditations regarding the passion, resurrection, etc (a cycle of 15 in Germany in the 15th century, for example) could also use a string of knotted beads to help keep track of them.

While the recitation of the Rosary (tm ) may not be super common, or even highly encouraged by the common man, I would suggest that a string of prayer beads is far more usual, especially if in cheap materials such as wood and bone. We have extant examples of prayer beads, as well as trade illustrations of the paternoster makers (check out the MOL dress accessory book).

we just need to be careful if we choose not to subscribe to that insideous cult of Mary that our religious devotions are not misunderstood by our local priests .

interestingly, I dont remember a single example of the rosary being mentioned (prayer or beads) in Margery Kemp, my favorite example of a middle class woman who was too religious for her own good. she mentions every other heresy, like insisiting on wearing white, and taking communion too often, etc, but not the rosary!

--AM


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Gwen
Member
Member # 126

posted 03-26-2001 11:40 AM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'll post a selection from a book I'm reading on the history of the Rosary when I get to the shop and have access to a scanner and a word recognition program, but I thought I'd interject a comment here.

There is a distinct difference between "Paternoster" beads, upon which one keeps track of one's prayers (in this case, specifically "Our Fathers") and saying a string of "Aves", and advertising that one subscribes to the Marian/Rosary cult--and it does seem to be viewed historically as a cult by some contemporaries.

Reciting strings of prayers in the form of Marian psalters for the delight of Mary is much different than the formal Rosary, which requires simultaneous meditation upon the life of Christ.

As reenactors, I think its important to know the difference between a "Paternoster" and a "Rosary", and be able to define the difference to the public, if questioned.

Interestingly enough, there is absolutely no mention of Rosary or paternoster beads in the possession of Joan of Arc. She asked for a cross that she could look at while she was on the stake, but there is no record of her having used or carried prayer beads of any sort.

Gwen


Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brenna
Member
Member # 96

posted 03-26-2001 02:18 PM     Profile for Brenna   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I had previously heard there was a difference between paternoster beads and a rosary, thanks for the enlightenment.

Also, do you think the fact that Joan was a poor illiterate peasant might make any difference in whether she had either a paternoster or a rosary? No judging, just honestly wondering

Brenna


Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
Bob Hurley
Member
Member # 58

posted 03-27-2001 11:29 PM     Profile for Bob Hurley     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, while we're on the subject, would an armed man/soldier have worn a crucifix, and, if so, how and under what circumstances?
Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged

All times are ET (US)  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Wolfe Argent Living History

Copyright © 2000-2009 Wolfe Argent Living History. All Rights reserved under International Copyright Conventions. No part of this website may be reproduced or utilized in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, including photocopying, recording, or by any information storage or retrieval system, without permission of the content providers. Individual rights remain with the owners of the posted material.

Powered by Infopop Corporation
Ultimate Bulletin Board 6.01