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Author
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Topic: Ave Maria - Pater Noster
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Gwen
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Member # 126
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posted 03-08-2001 02:18 PM
I couldn't remember if I had posted these before, but since we should all know our prayers, I thought it might be useful. Our Brother Geoffrey researched these, and he says they're appropriate for 15th C. I thought it was interesting that the tail end of the "Our father" (For thine is the kingdom, etc) is a later addition, as is the tail end of the "Hail Mary" (Holy Mary, Mother of God, etc.).The literal translation accompanies each prayer. Gwen -------------------------------- Pater noster...........Our Father qui es in caelis,......which art in Heaven sanctificetur..........hallowed be nomen tuum.............Thy Name. Adveniat regnum tuum...Thy kingdom come. Fiat voluntas tua,.....Thy will be done sicut in caelo.........as in Heaven et in terra............also on earth. Panem nostrum..........our bread quotidianum............daily da nobis hodie.........give us today. Et dimitte nobis.......And forgive us debita nostra,.........our debts, sicut et nos...........as also we dimittimus.............forgive debitoribus nostris....our debtors. Et ne nos inducas......And lead us not in tentationem:........into temptation, sed libera nos.........but deliver us a malo. Amen...........from evil. Amen. ----------------------------------------- Ave Maria,............Hail Mary, gratia plena;.........full of grace; Dominus tecum.........The Lord is with thee. Benedicta tu..........Blessed art thou in mulieribus,........among women, et benedictus.........and blessed is fructus ventris tui...the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Amen...........Jesus. Amen.
[This message has been edited by Ginevra (edited 03-08-2001).]
Registered: Feb 2001 | IP: Logged
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Anne-Marie
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Member # 8
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posted 03-11-2001 01:10 PM
on how to carry your paternoster beads...as far as I can tell (from Chaucer illos, etc) the beads are worn looped through the belt, or if they're the really longs ones, bandolier style across the chest. remember they're not a special sunday only kind of toy, they're an every day heavy use item. also, I have little documentation for prayer beads with crosses (only one picture or so). Most of them appear to be like the greek worry beads...a string of beads loosely knotted with a tassel. (look in the background of the arnolfini marriage) --AM, who's looking for some nice recycled coral to make hers from
Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged
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Gwen
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Member # 126
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posted 03-26-2001 01:59 AM
I hate to be a wet blanket here, but did anyone read this part of the page that Jeff posted? In the latter part of the 15th Century, reforming churchmen preached against rosaries as well as mistresses as things to be renounced by the pious. As I stated above, not everyone thought a "rosary" was a good thing, and there was a significant movement against the rosary. While virtually every single donor and/or Virgin painting contains a rosary, I haven't found a single rosary on a soldier. Like brocades, velvets, silks and bright, deep colors, we need to consider the use of the Rosary carefully, and NOT assume that every man, woman and child carried one as a matter of course. Gwen
Registered: Feb 2001 | IP: Logged
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Anne-Marie
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Member # 8
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posted 03-26-2001 10:41 AM
quote: Originally posted by Ginevra: I hate to be a wet blanket here, but did anyone read this part of the page that Jeff posted?[b] In the latter part of the 15th Century, reforming churchmen preached against rosaries as well as mistresses as things to be renounced by the pious. As I stated above, not everyone thought a "rosary" was a good thing, and there was a significant movement against the rosary. While virtually every single donor and/or Virgin painting contains a rosary, I haven't found a single rosary on a soldier. Like brocades, velvets, silks and bright, deep colors, we need to consider the use of the Rosary carefully, and NOT assume that every man, woman and child carried one as a matter of course. Gwen[/B]
its an interesting research problem....the rosary object is clearly an object for devotion and the pious. So how common was it for your average medieval person? --there are mentions of prayer beads as well as illustrations of them on all the pilgrams in Chaucers canterbury tales, which makes sense since they're pilgrams, for gosh sakes . -In Chaucers ROmance de la Rose, a character passes herself off as a Beguine (a secular religious person)and mentions specifically her "bedes" as part of the description. --In the late 15th and early 16th century, the rise of the cult of mary turned prayer beads into a devotion particular to her. in 1470, the Confranternity of the Psalter of Jesus and Mary was formed, and by 1476, it had 50,000 members. The only requirements were that you said the rosary once a week and took communion once a month. (from Gribbles _History and Devotion of the Rosary_, 1992). In March 1572, Pope St Pius V granted official recognition to the Rosary I think its important to separate the concept of "rosary" from "Prayer beads". Prayer beads are clearly devotional items, common enough to be slung through the belt and illustrated hung on the wall next to the bed. What makes prayer beads into a rosary is the prayers you say on them. Devotional meditations regarding the passion, resurrection, etc (a cycle of 15 in Germany in the 15th century, for example) could also use a string of knotted beads to help keep track of them. While the recitation of the Rosary (tm ) may not be super common, or even highly encouraged by the common man, I would suggest that a string of prayer beads is far more usual, especially if in cheap materials such as wood and bone. We have extant examples of prayer beads, as well as trade illustrations of the paternoster makers (check out the MOL dress accessory book). we just need to be careful if we choose not to subscribe to that insideous cult of Mary that our religious devotions are not misunderstood by our local priests . interestingly, I dont remember a single example of the rosary being mentioned (prayer or beads) in Margery Kemp, my favorite example of a middle class woman who was too religious for her own good. she mentions every other heresy, like insisiting on wearing white, and taking communion too often, etc, but not the rosary! --AM
Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged
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Gwen
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Member # 126
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posted 03-26-2001 11:40 AM
I'll post a selection from a book I'm reading on the history of the Rosary when I get to the shop and have access to a scanner and a word recognition program, but I thought I'd interject a comment here.There is a distinct difference between "Paternoster" beads, upon which one keeps track of one's prayers (in this case, specifically "Our Fathers") and saying a string of "Aves", and advertising that one subscribes to the Marian/Rosary cult--and it does seem to be viewed historically as a cult by some contemporaries. Reciting strings of prayers in the form of Marian psalters for the delight of Mary is much different than the formal Rosary, which requires simultaneous meditation upon the life of Christ. As reenactors, I think its important to know the difference between a "Paternoster" and a "Rosary", and be able to define the difference to the public, if questioned. Interestingly enough, there is absolutely no mention of Rosary or paternoster beads in the possession of Joan of Arc. She asked for a cross that she could look at while she was on the stake, but there is no record of her having used or carried prayer beads of any sort. Gwen
Registered: Feb 2001 | IP: Logged
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