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Author Topic: Twin Sword technques in the 13th centur?
Louie deStefano
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posted 09-30-2003 08:45 PM     Profile for Louie deStefano     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
has any one seen reference to two-sword fighting in the 13th century? any diagrams/manuals?
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Glen K
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posted 09-30-2003 09:47 PM     Profile for Glen K   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Louie,

In a word, no. This topic pops up every now and again on various boards, but before the early modern period when a case of rapiers was used, the only real evidence for fighting with two swords in Europe are a couple of allusions to Viking sagas and trial-by-combats. The great preponderance of evidence leads us to believe that the mythic "two sword" method of combat is just that: a myth. Sorry.


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Woodcrafter
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posted 10-01-2003 01:04 PM     Profile for Woodcrafter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The text of Fiori de Libri fight manual, 1409, shows how to use two clubs against a spear. Use one to deflect spear, second to stun the opponent, drop the first and then stab him with your dagger... It also shows a spear and a dagger. But no other dual weapon combos.

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Woodcrafter
14th c. Woodworking


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Louie deStefano
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posted 10-01-2003 09:21 PM     Profile for Louie deStefano     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have been thinking: why is it that two-sword fighting did not evolve 'till much later and was only aplied to rapiers? Is it because swords at that time were not used to parry? Am I totally out to lunch?
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Glen K
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posted 10-01-2003 11:21 PM     Profile for Glen K   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"What if? What if angels danced on pinheads? 'What if' is a game for scholars..."

Brought to you by "The Lion in Winter".

We can only speculate to prove a negative, but my guess would be that, as far as combat went, the biggest reason was that it was much more defensively effecient and increased one's battlefield effectiveness/survivability to have a shield in the other hand rather than another sword. A comprable question would be "why didn't two-sheild evolve?" Of course, armour developed to the point of not really needing a shield for the nobility, but a very common weapon was the hand-and-a-half sword, which was very effective with two hands. Many of the en masse weapons which evolved in the later medieval period also required the use of two hands: bills, any pole weapon, pikes, bows, crossbows. By the time you get to a case of rapiers, it's being used in an exclusively civilian arena against opponents who aren't wearing ANY armour.

Who knows? The bottom line, however, is that historically it didn't.


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Woodcrafter
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posted 10-02-2003 08:31 AM     Profile for Woodcrafter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The question was asked:
quote:
Is it because swords at that time were not used to parry? Am I totally out to lunch?

Swords were used to 'parry' or 'ward' or 'guard.' Given the choice of being hit or interposing 'something' in your hand to stay alive, it is almost instictive to put something in the way. The more fighting manuals that are discovered, the more we learn that there was a body of Western knowledge and training handed down from earliest times.

As for being out to lunch. Perhaps you have a favourite theory that you wish to adopt or prove, and are therefore working backwards to document it. Rather, research what actually was done, then portrait that instead.

Perhaps we should start a thread of things that have yet to be proven to be done? Like quivers were not worn on the back, or rarely used for that matter.

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Woodcrafter
14th c. Woodworking


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Saverio
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posted 10-02-2003 10:37 AM     Profile for Saverio   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Woodcrafter, I'd love to see a thread like that. I know that there are at least a few things (like the quiver on the back) that I never gave much thought until now.
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Lachlan Yeates
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posted 10-08-2003 01:23 AM     Profile for Lachlan Yeates     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The "King's Mirror" (13th C) has a bit saying that at the point of a wedge a spear and shield will avail you more than two swords, and there are various other Viking references to two weapon fighting styles, though hardly may swords.

Some interesting ones that I would like to try though. In Njal's Saga he fights with a "halberd" and sword. Could be interesting.

I was under the impression that one fetchbutch writer said that if someone is using two swords they are more likely to hurt themselves than the other person.

From my experience, you invariably end up using one to block and one to attack, and a shield is better at blocking than a sword...

There are also basic flaws with the fighting style. Two weapon fighters almost invariably leave a gap striaght down their head which you can get them with.

Spearmen rip them apart, unless they are one-on-one, especially on the lower legs. Forarms are toast.


In short, we have very limited evidence for this being used and I think it was not as effective in practice.


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Jeff Johnson
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posted 10-08-2003 10:01 AM     Profile for Jeff Johnson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lachlan Yeates:
In Njal's Saga he fights with a "halberd" and sword. Could be interesting.

Reading translations are we? Gotta be careful when doing that, as linguistics scholars aren't usually well-versed in weapons lingo. Most likely, it was a fighting spear rather than a heavy chopper like what we think of as a 15th C halberd.

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Geoffrey Bourrette
Man At Arms


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Lachlan Yeates
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posted 10-08-2003 06:35 PM     Profile for Lachlan Yeates     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
And thus the quotation marks.

This has already been discussed in our group a bit, with all the bits it was used taken out. A spear about 1.8m long seems to be the concensus, as it was used with a single hand, and it was theorised it had a long head, possibly similar to the Sutton Hoo "spear".

When I do a reconstruction I will have the blade and socket taking up about 1/3 of the shaft I think.


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Ivo
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posted 10-28-2003 05:10 PM     Profile for Ivo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Erm...

two swords...

If I had but one sword and was considering to buy something for the other hand, Iīd go for a buckler or shield.
Why?
Itīs by far more reasonable.
Itīs by far more protective.
It can be replaced more reasonably.

And still, itīs at least as serviceable- you can use it for parrying- and you can just as well give your opponent a stout blow or two with the shield boss.

A sword was worth a fortune. A shield would surely have been by far more reasonable.

The use of two swords has a dashing and heroic feel, and, of course, there will be some or another myth dealing with a two-sword fighting warrior (does anyone remember the 1980īs British Robin Hood TV series with the saracen called Nasir?), but in terms of living history, at least to my mind, this is not the way to go.

Reminds me somewhat of some debates we had over here (in Germany, that is) dealing with the question whether bearing a two-handed sword on oneīs back couldnīt hopefully be authentic, for technically and technologically this might well have been possible. For William Wallace. In the 13th century. ;o)

Regards

Ivo

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Ivo


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The Old Celt
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posted 11-03-2003 02:11 PM     Profile for The Old Celt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
A couple of my students wanted to experiment with the concept of 2 short swords. We found that if you are shorter than your opponent and move quickly, shots to the lower torso are quite effective against most weapons....that is of course if you can meet the above criteria. AND...the swords were only 20" also.

I have to say I find it odd myself having done this for years that I am not finding any "medieval" references to this type of swordplay.


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Jeff
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posted 03-03-2004 11:36 AM     Profile for Jeff     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I hate to throw circumstantial evidence into the mix, but just for kicks and giggles, here's a 13th century manuscript leaf from the Beinecke collection:
http://inky.library.yale.edu/ARTHUR/IMAGES/Z4410100.JPG

I know, I know, fantastical and proves nothing, but it is one of the only images I know of, so I thought I'd share.

[ 03-03-2004: Message edited by: Jeff ]


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Harlequin
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posted 12-24-2005 08:47 AM     Profile for Harlequin     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Since we're throwing some offcuts into the pot, this page has an image (second image down) of an archer with his quiver slung around his shoulder or neck and clearly not around his waist as he companions do (11th C).
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Jens Boerner
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posted 01-10-2006 04:53 AM     Profile for Jens Boerner     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Leif,ich think the image you linked is more like early 14th, then 13th century, of course only a detail.
The style of the letters, the illustrations, the borderwork and the worn amour points to about 1300-1320 flamic style I would guess.

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