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I'm on an email list for "low country" folks. there's a number of folks there who actually live there and do living history, including a Brugian or three.

They state categorically that the language of Bruges in the 15th century was NOT french but Dutch/Walloon. In fact, they are constantly amazed by all the people with French names saying they're from Bruges....

I explained to them that while I'm in Bruges right now, I am not from there, and as part of the burgundian court, I speak the language of that court, specficially the Picardian dialect of french, and they agreed that that was appropriate.

so, Gwen, if you've lived in Bruges, what language do you speak every day? perhaps the language of your husband and the rest of your household?

--AM

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Wow- what a revelation! All this time I thought we were speaking French! How can anyone POSSIBLY know all there is to know about this game we play!!! I get deeper and deeper every day!!!

The only bad thing about this is that Intertran gives me "Minnares" as the Dutch word for "Mistress". I can't say I like the way that sounds. "lady" translates as "vrouw", which I imagine sounds a lot like "frau"- not much better, I'm afraid.

Pieter, any thoughts here?

quote:

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Originally posted by Ginevra:
OK, maybe I'm off base here, as I thought I was supposed to be speaking French of some sort, hence the statement that "Maitresse" was the proper form of address for me. But AM you and your cronies think I should be speaking Dutch? Tristan is from Germany and therefore assume his first language to be German. However, he's been in the Lowlands and Burgundy for a number of years, so I can safely assume that he speaks at least Dutch and or some French if he is working for Chas. the Bold and/or Louis de Gruthyuse. I don't speak German, so assume we speak Dutch at home.

Wow- what a revelation! All this time I thought we were speaking French! How can anyone POSSIBLY know all there is to know about this game we play!!! I get deeper and deeper every day!!!

The only bad thing about this is that Intertran gives me "Minnares" as the Dutch word for "Mistress". I can't say I like the way that sounds. "lady" translates as "vrouw", which I imagine sounds a lot like "frau"- not much better, I'm afraid.

Pieter, any thoughts here?

Gwen

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yeah, it was a suprise to me too. The local folks were VERY insistent (as only non-SCA re-enactors can be ).

Thing is, WHEN did you move to Bruges? how long did you live there? did you do business there, or just interact with your family? If your family was Italian, as a good little girl, it would make sense that your primary language would be that of your family.

If, however, you needed to do business, it would make sense that you would perform that in the language of the town, ie Dutch (or the 15th century equivalent).

On the third hand , if, like me, your primary interactions would have been with those wacky burgundians, you would have spoken mostly in their language.

and of course, on the fourth hand, as Tristans wife and in interacting with the Company, you would spend a lot of time speaking THEIR language.

not to say that all of us would have had enough of ALL those languages to do basic everyday stuff like buy bread and find the nearest outhouse...

at least that's my spin on it....go for the title that #1, you like and #2, matches your name. If youre not Brugian enough to have Dutch-ized your given name, you probably wouldnt have taken a Dutch form of address, to my mind....

--AM

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I'm going out on a limb here and guess that most of the Red Company have at least a rudimentary command of Dutch in addition to German, so she speaks Dutch to them.

You know, this thread is 1)making me wish I really did speak these languages and 2) giving me a much better grip on geography and social interaction.

Thanks!

This is probably a little more managable then trying to actually trying to learn multiple languages. Then it would be just like his "persona" to bastardize the local languages speaking loudly to increase the locals' understanding.

I am still researching my background. Middle class definitely...and don't worry it comes with documentation and footnotes!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fire Stryker:
Oh it gets better. Someone in Bob's position within the Burgundian army has to be able to give commands in all the languages of those members in his company be they Italian, German, Flemish, English, etc... Now that's a mouthful! Lucky him, we have all of them listed above.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ginevra:
Ginevra has been living in Bruges since she was 14. She was home schooled and works helping her armourer father with his business, that's how she met Tristan. Like most bi-lingual people, she speaks mostly Italian and Dutch at home and Dutch and French with clients. I imagine the clients use the form of address which comes with their language.

I'm going out on a limb here and guess that most of the Red Company have at least a rudimentary command of Dutch in addition to German, so she speaks Dutch to them.

You know, this thread is 1)making me wish I really did speak these languages and 2) giving me a much better grip on geography and social interaction.

Thanks!

Gwen

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I wonder where we can find a Walloon dictionary to pick up some choice words? I bet the cuss words are pretty good.... '

--AM

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I don't know why you are presuming your normal language to be Picard French, even if you were born French speaking. In your position, most of your interactions with people would be involved with primarily Dutch speakers. Who do you deal with more? Do you sit and chat with Antoine, his high servants, and his guests? Or do you deal with the kitchen staff, people on your social scale in the household, and people in the market (who would be Dutch speakers most likely)?

Walloon is French, pure & simple. I don't know if the modern dialect and the Medieval dialect are compatable. I know my efforts to translate de la Marche have been infuriatingly slow, as near a third of the words he uses I do not understand (not in any decent French dictionary I have access to, and confound fluent primary French speakers I have shown them to) , and many are not in the very good 'Old Norman' (more properly Old French, the title is an affectation of the 18th century English author) dictionary we have. I'm just pointing out the possible huge difference in a large variety of words, nevermind the very different turn of phrase.

As a side note, in your post, persisting in speaking French in market in Bruge would mark you out and make you a victim of the first mob who came across you in time of unrest. Servants of noblemen were popular victims to choose, as one could 'strike' the nobleman without incurring the same degree of wrath. Were you to live a long and healthy life then, fluency in Dutch would have been one of your top priorities. Walloons had nowhere the influence in the towns that they did from the 18th century to the present day.

In our era, the towns of Flanders for the most part were primarily, and proudly Dutch speakers, and the Burgundians intentionaly followed a policy of pro-Flemish business, and fostered positive interaction on every level of society, binding the two elements (Franco-Burgundian and Flemish)together in every aspect from civic ritual to a mutual financial dependancy. When Ghent rebelled in 1452, ALL the Flemish towns supported the Duke in bringing Ghent to heel. Prominant scholars of the subject see that point as the true emergence of a sense of 'Burgundian' feeling amongst the Low Countries, which as Wims Martin points out , even though the 'state' of Burgundy never truely emergred, enough independent and unifying feeling existed for the modern states of Belgium, Holland, and Luxembourg to struggle and exist into our present time.

Bruge of all places during this time would be a place where a normal person would have found the need, and the means to become multi-lingual.

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I totally agree that the language of Bruges was Dutch for our period. The local boys I've spoken with confirm that.

HOWEVER. Medieval Anne-Marie is NOT from Bruges, and is not Flemish. She was born and raised just outside Dijon. The household staff that she spends her time with are mostly from various areas of modern France (Artois, etc), and her boss speaks Picardian French. I am blythely assuming that Medieval Anne-Marie's primary language, ie what she grew up speaking, what she speaks with her parents and siblings and childhood friends would the Picardian dialect (we were informed by the French Linguistics history prof at University of Virginia that this was the case, and he's in fact the one who gave us the term "la maisnie" which we took as our household name)

That aside, Medieval Anne-Marie would probably have enough medieval Dutch to buy food in the market, deal with merchants, etc. She also probably spoke enough Italian, German and maybe even English to do the same, as the household was NOT static or staying in Bruges all the time, but moving around the countryside with Antoine (we have documentation for his travels all over the Continent).

Its hard for us mono-lingual Americans to wrap our brains around the idea of living in a multilingual culture. BUT its also hard for us mobile Americans to wrap our minds around the concept that a person could live a very insulated life and never really learn the language of the country they were living in (witness the hundreds of Asians who live in the heart of Seattle for years and never learn more than a few words of English...why should they? where they work, shop and live doesnt require it.)

again, these are just my conclusions based on information I've gleaned from reading, the art (the stuff in Dijon is not in Dutch), info from academics studying the area and info from living historians living in Bruges and Flanders now.

-AM

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ginevra:
So AM, how did you and I meet and become friends? I blythely assumed we met in the marketplace in Bruges and struck up a conversation.

Gwen

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perhaps we started fighting over the same fish in our broken Dutch

an interesting question!
--AM

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more questions are poping up... but it feels that i need to do some research on camp life. how it was set up, interactions with the outside. i'm reading between my studies "peasants in the middle ages" by Werner Rosener. mostly deals with germans and from the period of 1000-1400; but it was in the library of my feinds house. any suggestions on some readings.

daniel

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Db

[ 07-04-2001: Message edited by: EleanorR ]

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during the 1400's venice and florence were allied at times. they were also at each other's throats at other times. then again everybody was "bed hoping" at one time or another. there are many examples of alliances of states which were once enemies allied against another; or of "captains" of one state in the service of another.

as venice goes there was an abundant dalmation population, plus greek, armenian, muslim, and african. so would they have been broken up into "barios/buroughs" like say ny city? with each little pocket speaking their own language?

on a seperate note... i'm not too comfortable using latin-america as an analogy for medieval italy. from my contact with latin americans, when they speak spanish, they speak spanish. there are "dialectal" differences in speach patterns and associated meanings (same word assigned different meanings in differnt countries) but it still derived from spanish and eighty is still eighty from the E.E.U.U to Argetina.

i've always liked to compare medieval italy with spain when it comes to languages. spanish is spoken in spain. However, what we recognise as spanish is really castilian and there are noticable differences between it and catalonian, galician, basque, valencian, and ladino. and eighty isn't eighty in each of those languages.

was there that much of a difference in language between the states of italy? can you elaborate your resoning further please.

i now reread my original post and would like to clarify my question. how would a florentine or a venetian in the service of burgundy interact with it's multi-languaged corp? this question is geared towards being able to cross my group over to WoR participation. i kinda like the idea of being able to represent a differnt background other than the stock english, french, german, burges ,did i leave anybody out? and if i am not speaking english would anybody understand me?

wait a second... what languages do we speak as a group anyway? i mean as in what languages can we, i.e. the actual person and not the persona i assume, actually speak?

nutts it's time for bed... more later.

daniel

[ 10-29-2008: Message edited by: LHF ]

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Db

quote:

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Originally posted by LHF:

wait a second... what languages do we speak as a group anyway? i mean as in what languages can we, i.e. daniel balseiro not the persona i assume, actually speak?

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MOdern Anne-Marie speaks English (duh) and speaks and reads some French (enough to function sorta kinda), and a couple words of Italian (enough to order gelato and flirt with the cute guards at the Vatican ) and German. All of these are the modern forms of the languages. I can read medieval French, especially if I have a modern French-Medieval french dictionary handy, but have no idea how to pronounce it.

Medieval Anne-Marie speaks the language of her family and childhood in the hills of the MOrovan outside Dijon, some Parisian French, some English, some Dutch and maybe some Italian and/or Germanj (enough to function in the marketplace)

at least thats my spin on it

--AM

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by LHF:
as venice goes there was an abundant dalmation population, plus greek, armenian, muslim, and african. so would they have been broken up into "barios/buroughs" like say ny city? with each little pocket speaking their own language?

Apparently yes. E.g. there is still a large area of Venice called the Giudecca, the Jewish quarter, there is a "Greek" church of St. George, and the word "Ghetto" is Venetian!

[QUOTE]on a seperate note... i'm not too comfortable using latin-america as an analogy for medieval italy. i've always liked to compare medieval italy with spain when it comes to languages.

I think the differences between these two analogies are slight- I was just looking for a modern example in which many unassociated countries speak what is nominally the same language, but are not politically affiliated. Spain is similar to Italy in having a number of dialects, all arising from the interaction of Latin speakers and Gothic invaders, and now brought together in a modern political entity. Although Basque complicates the mix in Spain. . . no indigenous languages have left much mark in Italy.

[QUOTE] Was there that much of a difference in language between the states of italy? can you elaborate your resoning further please.

While I look for medieval texts that would illustrate this further, let me give you some tidbits. Compare Venetian "Doge" (pr. dohj) and Florentine "Duce" (pr. Doo'-cheh). Same word, etymologically, but different pronunciation and connotations. Florentine, the language of Boccaccio and Dante, was privileged in the 19th c. standardization of Italian. When I travelled to Venice after being in Florence, the Venetian texts on display in the Ducal Palace looked to me like they were Italian chewed up and spat out- very different than even contemporary Tuscan, not to mention modern Italian. I'm sorry I can't get more specific than that just now, but I'm looking.

Modern-day Italians have lots of jokes about the way Florentines speak, both their attitudes (snotty) and their pronunciation, which favors an aspirated hard c- a raspy ch like the (ancient)greek chi instead of a k sound. That's another reason why I chose the Latin American analogy- Different pronunciations, slang, and stereotypical attitudes don't necessarily halt communication, but make it a lot less fun and easy to chat with someone from another region, and can even be considered another language if the speakers want to think of it that way (e.g. Serbian and Croatian).

My brief experience with Venetian leads me to believe that it was much more different from Tuscan Italian than that, but I'll be on the lookout for a text that confirms that, hopefully by saying "those darn Venetians- can't understand a word they say" or "they can't even say 'eighty' right."

My basic point is that, political/military alliances aside, the people of Tuscany and the Veneto, and the other regions of Italy, didn't have the cultural and linguistic community that might be implied by calling them all Italian. If Florentines and Venetians were in the same camp, they might band together under some circumstances and feud under others, but they wouldn't necessarily bond over a shared language.

[ 07-05-2001: Message edited by: EleanorR ]

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French-speakers couldn't manage the pronunciation and were bumped off. A true shibboleth.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of this story, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was done.

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Go Smiggins Holes 2010!

Egfroth

How would I, as a member of the English middle class of 1471, address someone of various social status?

My guess (...and it's no more than that)is something like;

- Higher status "Sir" (not "My lord" or "Sir XYZ" unless he really was a noble or a knight")

- Equal status "Master Talbot" if I'm not socially acquainted with them, given name if I am.

- Lower status "Hey you!" if I don't know them, given name if I do.

quote:

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Originally posted by Fire Stryker:
One would think that, however, if I understood Bob correctly, it is part of Charles the Bold's Ordinances, that the commanders must be able to address the men under their command in their native languages.

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According to Doug Porch's exhaustive work on the French Foreign Legion, orders were (and are) to be given in exactly the same way as Bob describes. Unfortunately, reality intervened. The Legion, containing a dozen or more different nationalities, developed its own patois, and if you fail to learn that patois as a recruit, you're in for heaps of trouble.

Having served in the modern military with mush-mouthed idiots in positions of responsibility, and who had indecipherable accents, and who were shall we say resistant to change, I can understand if Bob decided to just give commands and let the information filter down.

According to Porch, in the Legion a recruit learns which commands cover which action basically by the "monkey-see, monkey-do" method.

Just wanted to cloud the issue.

quote:

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Originally posted by NEIL G:
- Higher status "Sir" (not "My lord" or "Sir XYZ" unless he really was a noble or a knight")

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I know that priests were also called "Sir".

Neil, if you don't have one already, get a copy of the Paston Letters. It's a great resource and you can see how people address correspondents of different class and status therein.

Yes, it's written English. But it's written conversational English. Perhaps it's more formal than what we'd call each other on a daily basis (I mean, you probably wouldn't great your husband as "my ryght lord and maister" outloud!), but it's a great source to answer your question.

Anyone else with sources for figuring this out?