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Author Topic: Kippers?
Otto von Teich
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posted 02-12-2007 05:03 PM     Profile for Otto von Teich   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What about smoked herring? I would think it would have been popular, at least in northern europe. Any evedince of herring in the 14th -15th centurys?...Otto
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gregory23b
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posted 02-13-2007 01:14 AM     Profile for gregory23b   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kippers are apparently known as red herrings in the middle ages.

Kipper is Old English, and has its etymology in terms of spawning. Spawn time is when the fish are caught.

But as for a smoked preserved herring, yes.

Despite Wikipedia's overview the term red herring is a medieval one, wiki claims it to be 17thc it is not.

(a1399) Oath Bk.Colchester 8: 1 last de red heryng meysed caded, iiij d. c1430 Usages Win.(Win-HRO W/A3/2) p.63: Euerich sellere of rede heryng..schal to ţe kynge v d. c1436 Ipswich Domesday(2) (Add 25011) 193: Also of eche last of red heryng seld by the last to gydyr, iiij d. of the seller.

But I have now corrected the wiki entry, hopefully it will remain.

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history is in the hands of the marketing department - beware!


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Otto von Teich
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posted 02-15-2007 06:00 AM     Profile for Otto von Teich   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Do you think kippers out of the can, laid out to dry some, with a little extra salt added would be a close match in looks and flavor to what they would have eaten back then?....Otto
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chef de chambre
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posted 02-15-2007 06:44 AM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Otto,

I don't believe they would have made them saltier than would be required for preservation - foods preserved by salting or brine usually required them to be desalinated to a degree to make them edible.

From someone who has actually eaten 'salt junk', and 'salt horse'. 400 years later, we see soldiers tying blue salt horse to twine amd putting it in running water for some hours to make it something short of utterly revolting. "Fit for a starving man to eat"...

I believe that if one strictly followed feast and fast days on a Medieval calander, one ends up with over 200 fish days, and if one is an augustinian monk, 72 meat days - and even they had meat both meals on a meat day.

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Bob R.


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Gwen
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posted 02-15-2007 07:58 AM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"Fish were avery important part of the diet of all classes in the Middle Ages, and the catching and breeding of fish was a correspondingly significant factor in the economy. Demand was always high throughout the year since...everyone was expected to fast, that is to eat only fish in Lent and all Wednesdays (until the 15th C.), Fridays and Satrdays, as well as on the eve of important feasts such as Christmas...Fish formed an important part of the total food intake. Both fresh water and sea fish were eaten, and there seems to have been no difficulty in organizing the transport of fresh sea fish over the whole country, since it was available virtually everywhere....Pershore Abbey, Worchestershire bought some fresh sea fish from Coventry in 1381-2, and Bicester Priory, Oxfordshire, was buying a wide variety of fresh fish in Bicester, Oxford and Wantage markets in the 13th C.: herrings, mullet, plaice, whiting, haddock, mackerel, milwell, ling and oysters. Nowhere in England is too far from the sea, and live fish could be transported for quite long distances packed in wet grass or rushes, particularly in cold weather.

Most of the fish eaten were salt-water varieties. The larger part of these came from the east coast ports, such as Great Yarmouth, which was one of the most important, at least up to the mid-fourteenth century. Most of the fish were herring, of which very large amounts were eaten. Every existing source that gives details of diet mentions herring very frequently, salted and smoked as well as fresh. These were bought in barrels of up to about 700 packed in salt. Before being put in the barrels the fish were gutted and soaked in brine for 14 to 15 hours. Because herring is a fatty fish it could not be dried, like cod, owing to the fat becoming rancid. "Red" herrings were also bought. These were soaked in brine as for "white" herring and then hung up to smoke for many hours. They did not keep as well as the white and were ususally sold in smaller quantities. As examples of the amounts bought, Durham Priory purchased 242,00 in 1307-8 and 60,000 in 1333-4 (in the 15th C. Durham Priory was feeding about 300 people, including about 70 monks). These herrings were presumably salted. In Bromhead Priory, Norfolk, in 1415/16, 17% of the total food expenditure was on herring.

In 1265 a lay household, that of the Countess of Leicester, ate from 400 to 1,000 herrings a day during Lent.

In 1451 Canturbury Cathedral Priory bought 10,000 fresh herring from Folkstone as well as 5,600 salted for the servants; 400 greenfish (probably cod), casks of salmon and sturgeon."

Excerpted from "Food and Feast in Medieval England", P.W. Hammond, pps 18-21 (Alan Sutton Publishing Ltd., ISBN 0-86299-794-1)

It might be noted that this year Lent begins on Wednesday, February 21 and terminates on Sunday, April 8. Any "living history' type meals or feasts undertaken during this interval should by rights be guided by the canonical laws governing Lenten meals. These rules include the avoidance of meat and dairy products, and the observation of Fridays as a fast day when only lunch is eaten.

I have an article on Lent and fasting that I wrote, if I think of it I'll dig it out and post it.

Gwen

[ 02-15-2007: Message edited by: Gwen ]


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Otto von Teich
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posted 02-16-2007 07:35 AM     Profile for Otto von Teich   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks everyone! one more question,Would it be ok to serve kippers and cheese on a meat day?...Thanks, Otto
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Gwen
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posted 02-16-2007 08:12 AM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hammond says that fish was rarely eaten on meat days because there were so many fish days. The suggestion is that one really got sick of eating fish, and enjoyed eating meat on the allowed days.

Ordinary fast days were Friday, in memory of the crucifixion; Wednesday because it was the day Judas accepted money in exchange for his promise to betray Jesus; and Saturday because it was the day consecrated to Mary and the celebration of her virginity. Lent, however, is usually thought of when the subject of fasting comes to mind. It’s length, six weeks, was chosen in imitation of Jesus’ fast of forty days in the wilderness.

To the modern diner, raised in an era of “healthy eating”, a meal without beef, pork, chicken or other flesh is not unusual. In the Middle Ages, flesh and other animal products such as butter, cheese, milk and eggs were the mainstay of the meal, and their absence sorely felt.
The Emperor Charlemagne explained to sympathetic ears that “he could not go long without food, and...fasting made him feel ill.” A 15th century schoolboy grumbles in his private notebook: “Thou wyll not beleve how wery I am off fysshe, and how moch I desir that flesch wer cum in ageyn...”.

I found the Lent article and will post it on February 21.

Gwen


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chef de chambre
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posted 02-16-2007 02:12 PM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks Gwen!

I look forward to seeing the article.

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Bob R.


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Otto von Teich
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posted 02-17-2007 11:58 AM     Profile for Otto von Teich   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yes indeed, thanks Gwen, I'm looking forward to it too...James
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gregory23b
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posted 02-18-2007 08:54 AM     Profile for gregory23b   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"Do you think kippers out of the can, laid out to dry some, with a little extra salt added would be a close match in looks and flavor to what they would have eaten back then?....Otto"


Not really, this link shows a full split kipper

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/e/e6/250px-Kipper.JPG

They are quite dry(ish) to hold, the boil in a bag and canned ones are usually fillets and much moister - tasty though.

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history is in the hands of the marketing department - beware!


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