In the film Ghandi, Indian crowds prostrated themselves before a cavalry charge, and the horses 'refused'.

At the battle of Hastings, the Norman cavalry were repulsed time after time by the English shieldwall(bristling with spears and axes, etc), but would not run through the densely-packed body of men, as it were.

If it is true that even trained warhorses will often 'refuse' to traverse human crowds or rough ground/obstacles, then is it because they are overriding their training and reverting to their powerful natural instincts of survival, thus avoiding harm or injury?

Thanks.

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Horses will generally not impale themselves if they can help it.

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The skill would be selecting a lead horse/rider combination that were forward going and more likely to be successful in a charge against a static target, making the more reluctant animals follow to a certain degree.

I have personally seen a horse charge through three sets of rope barriers with it's saddle flapping around it's belly when it broke loose at a show, and still end up in a show ring at the other end of the ground and carry on going. Also seen a video of three friesians bolting at a parade in which they charged through a couple of rows of chairs and kept going.

At the battle of Hastings, the Norman cavalry were repulsed more probably because the riders wanted to stay alive.

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I am pleased to say all my horses (thoughs that have it) will not only move forward against foote troops and other mounted troops but will attack if asked.

In living history we are moving out of the realm of almos there. We are surely but steadily recreating the dream of those that went to war. We are close with our horse stock and training. I am not sure if this is wanted or indeed a safe mind set.

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I have very limited practical knowledge about it but I personally think it must have been possible cause if heavy cavalry was good only for hunting down routing or very disorganized troops it would disappear much sooner IMHO.

I was once asked to make 2 German tilting saddles for a commission for a stately home in the UK. I refused the commission as they wanted to do jousting for real. This included full laminated lances with coronels. I worked out the loading on the coronel on a mans chest, based on the joint impact of 2 half tonne horses travelling at 25 mph. The impact on the chest worked out at 26,000 lbs per square inch per second. Like being hit with a 20 mm cannon shell. Just a thought. The coronel is the size of a silver dollar with small points. At first glance it seems safer than a point but infact the small points are designed to catch then transfere the energy of the impact. interesting and scarey.

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Another question that interests me how much damage could be done when rank of 100 horsemen charge into infantry. IMHO 100percent succes cant be gained though most casualties would be caused by lances.

Im interested mainly in 15th century profesional cavalry though I dont know too much cause its hard to get some good informations about this from what I know Id say fighting style of french ordonnance for example could be compared to battering gate: one unit charges and try their best with their lances then quickly retreat followed by charge of other wave running to resupply with lances and prepare for other charge trying to significantly weaken enemy. Would it look like this?

What you have calculated is the maximum possible amount of energy. However in a joust there are a lot of factors which bring this way down.

Firstly in the joust you have your lance across the horses neck increasing the angle of impact, thus decreasing the total energy transfered.
By the mid 15th c a tilt barrier was commonly being used in Burgundy (this is the area I have done most research on and replicate in jousting myself, so will use it as my point of reference), thus increasing the distance the horses had to be appart, and increasing this angle of impact.
If the horse run slightly wide (the counter list was not used until the 16th C) it increases the angle of impact even further.

Next the human body is generally not strong enough to handle that amount of force so the lance will try going out of your grip, of course that is why the arret and grapper are used to help prevent that. However, there is still the physics law of equal and opposite force, What you are putting into your opponent is also being put into you, of course a good saddle and riding skills will help to counter that to a degree but you will still see on a good strike, both riders and sometimes the horses being physically moved off to the side, thus removing energy from the lance impact.

Finally the lance itself, the idea of the joust in Burgundy in the 15th c was to unhorse your oponent or break your lance. By all accounts the breaking of the lance is the most common. So again as the wood bends then breaks it also removes energy from the impact.

As for the coronel, yes it has three sharp points intend to grip the rentage or armour, however it does still pevent the possibilty of the lance penetrating through the armour. And the armour itself spreads the force of the impact over a larger part of the body.

So while calculated numbers are important, the equation is very rarely as simple as it might at first seam.

Cheers
Joram

[ 07-30-2006: Message edited by: Joram van Essen ]

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The Armourer approached by the Stately Home(who is regarded as one of the best in Albion),also turned down the commission for harness as he didnt want to get involved in it either.

Nonetheless, the whole procedure did illuminate a few things for me; The destructive power of a C15th lance, The stupidity of some people, and also something that struck me after, Namely, that as we become more and more authentic in our equipment (our dream to make perfect copies of the harnesss, clothes and weaponary), we start, without realising it, realise the dream of the men who originally made the harness and weaponary, which was to make the ultimate protection against the ultimate weapons for killing at the time.

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A few more points to add to Joram's.

Firstly, I think you are overestimating horse speed given what seems to be length of list, and burden of horse. From your early description your client wished to engage in he Stetzug.

This brings up a second point, that the specific equipment in question was intentionally designed to maximise the safety of the participants, and this is by no means a field harness we are speakinfg of, but perhaps some of the safest 'extreme sport' equipment devised for centuries.

You may not be aware of this, but wealthy American armour enthusiasts attempted to revive the stetzug joust, at least for the purposes of exhibition, in the late 1930's. They got two teams of experienced riders - drivers from a local National Guard battery in New Jersey, had two crude Stetzug harnesses put together, and put on a show for a large audience, in 1938 I believe. Break away lances were not provided - full bore lances engaging arret and queue were employed, with numerous unhorseings experienced. To the best of my knowledge, no serious injuries of any sort were sustained, and the 'jousts' delighted the crowds (although Lord only knows what the artillery drivers made of what they probably percieved as nonsense they were paid to undertake). At one point at least one participant landed squarely on his head, but the massive if crude harness, with it's bulky helmet padding protected the fellow completely.

No doubt if the 'sport' had been perpetuated long enough (I view those drivers as more of being paid labourers than anything else), instead of a weekend, some injuries would have been sustained, as in any full contact sport. It seems to me, however, that the bulk of historic jousting injuries and fatalities occured amongst participants wearing field armour, or before the introduction of the coronel - if you study the physics of it as you state, surly you must realise the 3 or four points of the coronel spread the force of impact rather than concentrate it as a single point would.

As to your assumption that the lance was the deadliest weapon of the 15th century, I can only assume you are ignoring the other decisive battlefield weapons of the era, including but not limited to gunpowder field artillery and handguns. While the armoured lancer underwent a revival of importance on the battlefields of continental Europe from the third decade of the 15th century, the role enjoyed was one of an important and vital auxiliary, rather than the most important tactical component of an army - much like the tank is today, in an age of effective anti-tank capabilities on many levels enjoyed in most modern armies.

This from an advocate for the importance of the resurgance of the armoured lancer on the European battlefield.

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I agree with all you have said but for one small thing. When I was talking about the speed of a horse of 25 mph, that was for one horse. The calculation was based on a horse coming the other way at the same speed. Therefore the closing speed is actually 50 mph.

As an Englishman I agree there are always better weapons on the battlefield and a good long bow does it for me lol.

As for gunpowder, to my knowledge (in Albion), the first recorded killing on the field from gun shot was at Bosworth Field which was very late in the C15th. Mind you if you have earlier records on this then I think that is the opportunity for a whole new exciting thread.

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Regarding the effectiveness of artillery on the field, while not the queen of battle in the 15th century, artillery was coming into it's own by mid century. (leave it to an Englishman to allow Castillon to mentally lapse).

I have found in my research England did lag behind France and Burgundy in the infernal art of the artillerist, after the second decade of the 15th century (as did Italy, for that matter). The trunion appears to have been introduced by the French in the 1440's,as was the field carriage. The first recorded instance of field artillery trundleing into action on a field, fireing, limbering up and moveing, and fireing again was at the skirmish between the Burgundians and the imperial army at Neuss in 1475. Artillery is recorded as slaying men in action on a battlefield on the continent certainly by the time of the dispute over the succession of Hainault in the 1430's - ribauldquins had been killing men in combat, as employed by the Flemish town militias since the last several decades of the 14th century at least, where such carts of war were an integral part of battlefield tactics by said forces.

These were certainly not the battle deciding weapons of the late 18th - 20th centuries as artillery was to become, but they were more effective armour penetrators by the mid 15th century than the lance, in raw penetrative power - if somewhat quirkey weapons to operate and aim. Their rates of fire seem to have been far higher than traditionally credited by historians, especially concerning small to medieum field guns, with multiple breaches to speed loading.

If interested in the topic, I'd suggest reading Bert Halls work on late medieval and renaissance warfare, and the recently published (in English) work on the records of Burgundian artillery. Louis Napoleons work is still the general standard on the subject, holding up surprisingly well after nearly a century and a half since publication - but enough digression from the original topic.

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I have to admit to being utterly fascinated by your posts. I have lots of friends in the UK, most of whom do historical horse stuff of one stripe or another, but I've never heard of any yard where horses are walked over dead sheep.

I'm sure I'm not the only Yank on this board who would be interesting in hearing more about your yard, and indeed more about your experiences. What group do you participate with? Who directs the training of your horses? What events might we see you at? Where does the idea for a "longitudinal flanged lance" come from? Is this a historical method of lance making? Are they being used anywhere currently? Are you a saddler?

(afterthought) I was discussing your posts with a friend and she wondered how your Infectious diseases bureau feels about the dead sheep, given the problems the UK has had with Hoof and Mouth disease over the past decade. Also, I have to wonder how your Animal Rights people deal with it, I know the PETA types tend to be a bit widgy about things, and I don't imagine they'd take kindly to the idea of people training horses to ride over dead sheep. How does your group deal witht he press on an issue like that?

My husband and I spend a fair amount of time in the UK, and would be interested in seeing your yard's training practices in person. Indeed, we'd be keen to see your group in action, it sounds most impressive! Our time is fairly spoken for for our August trip, but we'll be back in October and have more time to travel around then.

Thanks!

Gwen

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:
My point is the horses would be unlikely to achieve 25 mph in the limited length of the list, given their burden in the given joust...

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Sorry Bob, you're wrong. I've been there, done that.

Properly trained and properly sized jousting horses easily go 25mph at the tilt, and (depending on the horse) generally attain that speed in 3-4 strides of the start of the run. That's one of the things that makes a good jousting horse.

This assumes the list is at least 300 feet long. A shorter field may not allow for some horses to build full speed, but anything short of 300 feet is too short historically and practically. A shorter field can be compensated for, however, if the rider trains the horse for it and gives his mount adequate confidence throughout, though this is neither optimal nor historical.

If one's horse doesn't go at least 25 down the tilt, either the field's far too short, the rider's holding him back or the horse (and probably the rider) needs more training and/or fitness.

I think all that you say is a truism

As for Gwen your sarcasm shines through so I wont bother answering your post as closed minds are never worth the bother

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Is your yard closed to visitors? I can provide a letter of introduction from some very well known horse people, if you like.

Kind regards,

Opps, I am sorry. I thought this was an open forum. Of corse you can do it all on your own.

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Cheers

I am not in a jousting group. Indeed I have never ever said I was. All training references were to Blunderville and Markham C16th and to Cruso whose work of cavalrie was written in 1632. Wagner is also a good help but his work is secondary and is therefore just heresay.

Our yard is more interested in the breeding and training of Coursers and not into combat (if you can call modern jousting combat). Nonetheless, that doesnt mean that the training does not include those elements. A much as we are not into modern dressgae it does not preclude the training in aires above the ground etc. I am sure you can see my point.

I am sure modern jousting has a place in the gamut that is reenactment but there is more to the whole equitation thing than that and that is where we like to be.

I feel that I have caused some annoyance with some of the people in here. Why for the life of me I have no idea. But if that is the case I am sorry. Maybe I should keep my head down and just listen to the pearls of wisdom that eminate from all of you worthies.

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this topic has steered into the ice fields of the North Atlantic.

Jenn

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