I, like Gwen, also know quite a few of the leading lights of cavalry reneactment in the UK and Europe. I also will be in Europe and the UK in September catching up with some of them.

You haven't answered our question as to where you are, who you are and who you are working with? So, I'll ask again.

If this seems harsh then just a gentle reminder that this is the internet and some people mis-represent themselves as being something or doing something they are not.

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Cheers

if you're interested in 16th century training manuals, I have Federigo Grison in Italian (1555), he's the founder of the Neopolitan School which can be considered the forerunner of all the others mentioned (including Blundeville, who basically translated Grison in his work on the Art of Riding and Breaking horses (I spelled the work's name in modern english)) as his students came from all over Europe and founded schools in their own countries.; also have it in German (1572), and French (1610).

The plates in the German book are quite exceptional. Problem is it is a 1970s facsimile which includes the Fraktur typeface which is an absolute bear to read.

Jenn

[ 08-01-2006: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ]

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Now I could waste a lot of time emailing my friends and contacts in the UK trying to divine through process of elimination who you are and where your yard is, but it would be much more efficient if you were to just answer our questions. We've all had to give a bio at some point, that's the only way to get to know the people one "converses" with via this medium.

As you point out, this is an open board for the dissemination of knowledge, and you've brought some interesting ideas to the table. In addition to knowing the answers to the questions already posed, I'd also like to know why an English stately home would commission a German harness rather than an English harness. As for the "best armourer in Albion", Emrys is generally considered to be the best in England (maybe the weirdest, too), and he has categorically stated that he's keen to build German harnesses for solid lance jousting. Obviously you have different information than I have, so please do tell!

Gwen

Regarding the speed of horses in the joust, my commentary has been restricted to the German joust of peace, with stetzug harness, since that is what Steenie initially referenced as being unsafe and akin to being struck with the force of a 20mm cannon.

Unless I'm dreadfully mistaken, the equipment for that joust is nearly twice the weight of a field harness, the bolted down steel pillbox masquerading as a helmet approaching 25 lbs in weight alone - the German lances for the joust, at least in illustrations appear to be rather stout (more so by a margin than field lances), and lengthier than most lances I have seen in use in modern jousting.

What I'm driving at is the burden of the horse in these specific jousts must be near to what was considered the maximum campaign burden for 19th and early 20th century cavalry horses, I'd reckon at least a third more the weight that most modern jousters (the best representations of medieval ones, yourself included) are burdening their horses with, using essentially field harness or modified field harness.

Are you sure you will have the same preformance with this specific equipment that you do with what you currently use? My thought is that you likely won't, and if there wasn't a significant difference between that form and the modified French form the jousting circles currently use, the form woudn't exist as a seperate form of jousting.

I also have questions regarding the preformance of medieval horses as opposed to their modern counterparts, preformance differences of said horses based on everything from type to feed to vetting and shoeing practices. I don't think we have enough secure knowledge to make definitive statements about preformences of mounts under certain conditions, - especially given that the only attempt (a laughable one) at any serious approach to that form of jousting was done in 1938, and with a spotty methodology at best.

What I will find interesting is as some jousters pursuing acurate jousting (you included), have a go at trying out the form, and seeing what results they get - I know Rod is in the forefront of promoting an attempt at this form of jousting down under.

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Examples of these musclebound horses can be seen in Benozzo Gozzoli's "Procession of the Magi" in the Chapel of the Palazzo Medici-Riccardi in Florence (1459-60)

Gwen

When all the equipment is considered, both tack and armour, the weight difference between late 15th century joust rigs and early 16th century rennharnisch or stechzeug (dude, get the spelling right...) is -negligible-, perhaps only 20 pounds more. Twenty pounds will not make a noticeable difference in speed over a short distance.

Given artistic depictions of horses, as Gwen has pointed out, I find it difficult to believe that horses as valuable as good jousting horses could be any less athletic or strong than todays'. If anything, because they were less of a "luxury" and more of a necessity than our horses today, more stock was likely put into their training and fitness.

I see no reason to believe that horses used in either the Rennen or Gestech would be slower than horses we use today. If anything, they would be fitter and better trained than our horses today, as our ancestors had a longer tradition and better understanding of what's required of a jousting horse.

I was wondering why it was failed? Age? Size?

Just wondering.

Where did ya get it, one day i hope o have the land to have horseys. If there is an adoption agency for old/failed police horses i might be interested in getting one.....

one day

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I declare this thread officially and possibly terminally derailed!

;-)

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You know who I am so the best way out is to ring u.

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As for the Armourer it was Dressed to Kill, who as you know is probably the best there is and has been for a long long time.

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Yes there are lots out there.

Nonetheless, it was Mark who was asked to produce the harness.

Hasn't the recent heat wave been a dog for the horses and riding of them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Steenie:
Rod,

You know who I am so the best way out is to ring u.

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I do??? Now I am confused.

Why can't you just tell everyone your name? We're just interested in what you are doing.

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Cheers

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Rod, I spoke to you about 5 years ago when you were trying to raise Prince Ruperts Horse.

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From my dealings with Stan a few years ago I can say he was dead serious about getting the 17thc cavalry thing spot on.

Was a heap of help too when I was working on Ruperts Horse.

Sad to say Stan that we never really got going. We had a good year and then life got in the way for a lot of people. I still have all the gear packed away just waiting for an outing.

I am concentrating on 15thC now. I have been working on (and am getting back to it) putting together an historical joust of peace. Steel coronels, wooden lances, corect tack, all the right gear and done as closly as we can

Mounted melee and formation work is also something I am interested in perfecting.

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Cheers

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I am sorry that Prince Ruperts didn't work out. I am sure it was probably down to others rather than your own efforts. When you are over next maybe we can go for a drink.

Back to training techniques, if you review what I said about training on my yard you can see it is nothing but reasonable. I have always found that the guys in those days knew their stuff and we would be silly not to follow in their mind set.

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I also don't recommend tying a cat to a stick and jamming it clawing and hissing under a horses nether regions. (Early 16th c.)

The other thing to keep in mind is that anything beyond 1500 is really outside the scope of this board.

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I totally agree with your comments. However it was talking about the C16th that got me into the mire in the first place lol.

I think we have resolved it all and i am sure we can all move forward with a good, if exposed heart.

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I am afraid that she came from the police two owners before me, so I can't help with how they are rehomed. She was from the Lancashire Constabulary, so might be worth contacting them direct. I have to say that just because she did most of her training and went to two football matches, it does NOT mean that she is sensible, brave or an easy ride - failed police horses failed for a reason!

Penny