Let us know how the mess turned out?

I deleted my post of rage and dispair because I want to post a more complete account of the debaucle when I feel a bit more rested.

Back to the subject at hand, here is my response to a membership enquiry I received over the weekend.

-------------------------

Hi Kat-

Thanks for your note!

The Red Company -1471 is always open to new members who are interested in this period of history! There are no yearly dues or other membership requirements, and no previous reenactment experience is necessary. We actively help our new members in get their kit together, and are always here for advice and support.

We have business meetings on the 3rd Sunday of every month, and if you're interested in joining I'd suggest attending a meeting as a way to get started. You'll get to meet everyone else face to face, be able to ask questions, look at photos and some of the gear we use and generally get aquainted in a relaxed environment.

You may also be interested in an online BBC for reenactors where some of the Red Company hang out. "FireStryker Living History Forums" can be found at http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro&BypassCookie=true. We discuss research, philosophy of reenactment and just about anything you could think of that applies to reenactment. You are welcome to read the posts, or join the fray!

Feel free to call us anytime at 760-789-2299 for more info.

We look forward to hearing from you!

Gwen
Captain's wife
The Red Company - 1471
----------

This is the first time I've used this particular approach, so I'll let you know what happens. I have some other thoughts about recruits, but need to get some more paperwork done first.

Late one night last week I was too keyed up to sleep and was reading the AA at about 2AM. Reading compulsively, I got onto a thread about armouring (which of course I can't find again ). A very poor paraphrase of someone's story is that experienced armourers sometimes inadvertently hurt more than help when instructing beginners. The beginner spends hours and hours banging on a piece of metal and gets nowhere. In an effort to help and encourage the newbie, the experienced armourer comes over and does a demonstration- "it's really easy- you hit it here and here and here and viola, it's a cop!". Instead of picking up on the part about it being easy, the newbie feels like an incompetant fool because his efforts were so ineffectual next to the experienced armourer's effortlessness. Instead of being encouraged, the newbie swears off armouring forever, exactly the opposite of what the experienced armourer wanted to happen.

I read the story and it hit me- maybe the same thing applies to living history! Maybe people who are interested in what we do are scared off by thinking “Oh, they look so perfect, my stuff could never look like that so they probably wouldn’t want me”. They see the kit as intimidating and think they have to be at that level to join up. Maybe they don’t believe us when we say “we’re here to help”.

We’re accustomed to what we look like, so we can’t have an objective view of how we appear to people. We want to appear seamless and perfect and it is a testament to our efforts if we achieve our goals. However, the down side is that we may scare off new recruits with our perfection.

So how do we appear as perfect as we can for ourselves and for the casual public and yet remain accessible and non-threatening to new recruits???

That is an excellent idea. A lot of re-enactment groups have handbooks of varying quality and worth that they give to new recruits to help them out. It's something I keep meaning to do but never get around to in my never shrinking pile of things that need to be done (no matter how many things I do in the pile it just keeps growing).

I am speaking as a new recruit, and one who is trying to learn all the stuff you guys take for granted by "remote", being 1100 odd miles from the nearest group.

Yes, the thing that kept me from getting involved sooner was the intimidation factor. Most of you seem to have developed your kit, portrayal, camp structure, etc. through close cooperation and trial and error in a fairly gradual and organic process.

But to us new guys, it feels like we have to 'spring form the head of Zeus fully formed', initially anyway<sheepish grin>.

It is one of those cases where you don't realize how easy it is to get your basic beginners kit together until you've actually done it. From the outside even this 'simple' process is pretty daunting! (As I am writing this I am realizing how little I know what I'm talking about, even though I have my basic clothing ready, I haven't a clue what gear needs I'd have to conform to at an actual encampment... what food, shelter, and sleep gear requirements; and I'm still very shaky on the details of developing a portrayal that will fit in.... just to name a few concerns).

The point that I am trying to make is this; I strongly agree with the need for some kind of handbook!

A lot of the questions I have about gear, kit, camping, loaner gear, portrayal development and appropriateness, and a hundred other things could be addressed in the form of some sort of written reference!

In addition to helping acculturate newcomers, it would also help take some burden off of your 'point of contact recruiters'. I know that I have asked questions of Wilhelm and Gwen till I'm sure they are good and sick of holding my hand

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crispin:
A lot of the questions I have about gear, kit, camping, loaner gear, portrayal development and appropriateness, and a hundred other things could be addressed in the form of some sort of written reference!

---

Hmm, I'm interested to know what sort of questions you've had. I'm involved in the process of trying to develop a set of standards and handbook for a new group and it's difficult to anticipate some of the questions because they are concepts that we take for granted.

So far we've rather outlined a set of minimum standards we want for people to participate in tourneys that we host, a set of desired standards that we expect our members to adhere to and for any private events that we hold, the standards areas that we are looking at are clothing, encampment/environment, and armour.

For handbook materials we are looking at: approved merchants, clothing patterns, furniture plans, decorative patterns for painting, information on appropriate games, information about period tableware and settings. That's what we've come with so far. As we want to be able to add to our "handbook" we'll probably go the web publishing route.

So what other kinds of information would you find useful? We're still very much in the brainstorming stage so ideas and experiences are really useful.

We are currently in the process of expanding and updating our site. This was spurred by new members wanting to know, as Crispin put it, the stuff that we take for granted.

A suggestion: if you go web based for your standards like many of us have, I would also suggest having an ADOBE PDF file so that it can be downloaded and printed. I intend to add this feature to our own site in the next couple of weeks. This way potential recruits who do not have access to a computer (rare I know, but out there) who might be visiting a friend can get a print out to take with them.

"Print is not dead."

Jenn

If you think it can't happen, consider this:

*Jeff taught a class some years ago on shoemaking. 6 months later, one of the guys who attended the class set himself up in business as a shoemaker, using Jeff's patterns, info, and his name as a reference. The guy is an SCA Laurel now...for shoemaking.

*One of my guys brought me a newspaper article on medieval food this weekend. The article featured the SCA, and some of the quotes were word for work quotes from a cooking pamphlet I did years ago. Apparently it's still floating around and being used, but I'm no longer being credited. Maybe that's a good thing, as the info has been corrupted, and is now mixed in with some hideously incorrect tripe.

Now, lest you think I'm unwilling to share info, please let me point out that I've sent out more than a few patterns in the past few months and pages of copy. Peder is waiting patiently for his copy of my 15th C. doublet pattern, and Crispin's doublet made on that pattern is complete.

I'm not unwilling to share, I'm just unwilling to work for nothing, and to not even be credited for my labor.

Most of the people that contact us do so from our website. We find ourselves answering the same questions over and over again via email (Bob enjoys responding to the mail) but we also have people ask if there is someplace they can look on the site for more detailed info. As a result, we are currently writing a new section for our site which will expand on our portrayals page and answer the common questions and leave the option open for folks who wish to pursue it in detail, although nothing can replace the personal touch like a timely email response.

For more detailed information a person could use an online form and request information from a group POC. The POC could then send a hardcopy via snail mail or a PDF file to a the person via email.

The problem is that we can't prevent ideas from being taken by the unscrupulous, something is bound to get through. However, if the movement in the US is to expand, there are basics that all LH groups seem to have in their "minimum standards". Putting actual patterns in such a document would not be good for folks who make a business out of it, but putting in facsimiles (sketches) or paintings that convey the idea would be good.

When Bob and I received our Standards from the White Company, they included a lot of information, but it wasn't free. We paid a membership due and the postage (which was only fair as we lived overseas). They had sketches and some photos, but the sketches of clothing we examples and not to scale.

There are ways around it. Each group just has to decide how much is too much information.

If there was a FAQ page, we all could link to it through our individual group's websites, and save us all some work.

I'm certainly up for helping with that! Sign me up!

I think I suggested it at one time, but believe it is something we can all benefit from. We have a very brief non-LH one on our Wolfe Argent site, but I wanted to structure a more thorough one.

I like the chip in idea and we can set a FS LH FAQ page. I am currently weeding through our old email files looking for some of the older and new questions. Intergroup participation would be cool and take the burden off one person or group. If we come across something that is truly group specific we can either place a graphic icon or group name next to the question, section the FAQ, or leave it within the specific group's FAQ on their home site.

I completely understand where you are coming from and I really appreciate the information you are able to share. My philosophy is a bit different but then again I'm not trying to make a living with my craft. I think alot of the ways in which I approach sharing information is the conditioned, knee-jerk reaction of the librarian in me.

I rather feel that if somebody is going to be so sloppy as to not credit their sources they also won't bother to actually understand the material and therefore are likely to misinterpret me and I really don't want my name associated with their misleading statements. Also I am happy when somebody takes something that I teach them and runs with it; it either means it's something I don't have to do or it spurs me to do it better. I firmly back having more cool medieval things in the world; I'm also not trying to make my living selling medieval things. I rather teach somebody to fish than give them a fish but I also have come to realise that sometimes you have to give them the fish first so that they know they like the taste of fish.

I would love to see more medieval stuff in the world, and not necessarily because people buy the stuff from me. I love seeing what people do on their own, and I like sharing knowledge in this forum. I guess I just don't like spreading what I know around indiscriminitely. Specifically, I'm eager to help individuals and groups, but I'm not willing to help the world at large.

I guess I resent it when I get email that says "You know the answer, why do you waste my time telling me where to find the information- just send me the answer!" (Yes, unfortunately this was a real email)

AM is like you are Mitake, she just wants to get the word out there. Maybe I'm just older and have been burned more often than you both.

Why do I feel the need to justify myself? I feel like Ebenezer Scrooge. *sigh*

it is indeed a quandry...we want to share the cool info we've discovered, but it really frosts my cookies when I see my work misatrributed and squooshed into something its not. I've even seen it pulled off the net in the form of emails (all citation info carefully removed) and put into a booklet on medieval cooking that someone was selling at events. *sigh*....

what la maisnie does is point folks to the patterns that are already out there...there's a ton of stuff on the web. Some of it sucks, some like Maikkes stuff rocks . The minimum kit for a woman to play with us, say is:
1. a white kerchief. Use a white cotton dish towel to start. I can show you dozens of ways to wear a dish towel on your head and make it look like you meant to wear a dish towel on your head .
2. a white chemise
3. a gown of some documentable pattern. we point them to the 14th century stuff on the web, or they can buy their stuff from Gwen, etc.
4. some sort of perioide shoes. we recommend china flats from the Udistrict at $6 a pair.

thats it! pretty non threatening. Of course, most folks dont want to do the bare minimum, but is that my fault ?

again, I would suggest using the patterns out there already to start folks off, if Gwen (understandably) doesnt want to put her livelihood online.

You shouldn't feel that you are being miserly when protecting your business. As so many have said, you have a vested interest in this information. You have put years of research into it and it shouldn't be allowed to be "appropriated" by those who do not appreciate the effort or who are not willing to credit the source, or who take what is yours and sell it as their own. Theft BAD...Theft BAD...

Trade secrets should remain trade secrets and I hope no one had the idea that I was suggesting that Gwen post her patterns, cuz I wasn't.

The reason for ARMET is to have an understood uniform standard to allow the different 15th c. groups to participate with each other at events. This consists of two things

1. A minimum standard of authenticity that won't detract from the overall event - no glaring innacuracies for "you and I" to see. It was never intended to be a hard and fast rule of living history authenticity to force other groups to abide by. To make it so would be to stunt the growth of Late Medieval re-enactment in the U.S. which it is intended to foster.

2. A means of allowing these groups to have re-enactment battles & skirmishes on the order of the EMA or the War of the Roses Federation in England. This requires a number of mutually understood and enforced rules to allow such interaction. They don't have to be very complex as we do not have competative martial sport as our intent. Don't tell me it can't be done and safely, as I can point to hundreds of events across the UK where it is done every year with fewer nasty accidents than occur in the martial sport societies. To not allow or foster this activity is to never allow experimental archaeology in the form of command & manouver of units (and I'm really keen on trying this out with Medieval cavaly). Worse yet, it will limit the growth of the hobby in the US as most male re-enactors of all periods (the eras where they have the enforced minimum standards that look so good when you go to an event) are attracted to "experiencing" what a battle of the era may have been like - I know many of you have participated in massed "battles" in the SCA, but imagine what the experience would be like if everybody participating was from one time period in at least reasonably decent gear, and not having to worry about some ass with a Godzilla glued to his head trying to cripple you so he can put a crease in your new helmet. Also tactics are employed on SCA battlefields that do not resemble tactics known to have been used on the Medieval bnattlefield. One of the most moving experiences I ever had re-enacting was participating in Picketts Charge at Gettysburg 98, where they managed to re-create Picketts division man for man and manouver it properly up the hill towards me. I was astounded to see a sight that had not been seen for 136 years, and it gave me new insight into everything from the problems of manouvering a unit that large to a clearer view of the battle itself.

If we are no more than a few groups that disdain those who are not up to our standards but are trying, then we will be very lonely people indeed. As it is, there are only two groups in the US that have agreed to the ARMET guidelines. Those companies are "The Red Company" and Company of the Wolfe Argent". Until this situation changes these discussions are abstract at best.

I personally see the groups that are striving for living history happily co-existing and cooperating with the groups interested more in traditional re-enactment (The Yeomen Archers and Men of Warwick as examples). Better yet, I see us all having a good time together, our groups participating at the re-enactment level, and members so inclined from the other companies participating in Living History encampments. There is no reason that a Living History Encampment can not be put up at a traditional re-enactment (I've seen it done plenty of times). It becomes a focal point for visitors to the camps, and those interested to strive for higher authenticity in re-enactment.

This will be cross-posted under the ARMET forum

Maybe this isn't the right approach either. Any other ideas?

I don't see anything wrong with the way you approached it. We have had a few like that where you are contacted or approached at an event. You offer info and extend an invite to a meeting, then you never hear from them again.

They could be doing a couple of different things: reading and checking everything out or they just weren't ready to make any kind of committment, or they are really busy and haven't had the time to respond.

A couple of things. I really like the idea of a FAQ and a simple list showing how easy it can be for beginner to join and be "up to speed" with their kit.

It's very interesting to see the problems/issues with full disclosure vs hoarding of information and techniques. And although I can LOGICALLY understand wanting to keep trade secrets, well, secret. I really like the idea behind the statement of
a well known blacksmithing demonstrator (who's name I can't remember ) "If you plan on taking the information you get here today and go home and use it for yourself, then you can LEAVE now! If you plan on telling AT LEAST two other people about the techniques I've developed and show them how to do them, please stay ALL day." (Yes, blacksmithing is his primary job).

Anyway back closer to the topic at hand. How many started as a "faction" or "split" from an already established group and how many started from scratch? Were the techniques for getting new members different?

Swordsmith www.oakandacorn.com

Parades. In Markland in the '70s, we showed up for just about every parade that would have us, and we performed stage combat along the route til we were tired, then marched until we were bored, etc, etc. Then when we reached the judge's stand, we performed a pitched battle. We brought a Death Cart (to throw our wineskins and cloaks and dead bodies onto), and at least two members rode horses. Recruited many people that way. Best to start with Veteran's Day.

I heard of Markland from a display at my local library. Chainmail, a shield and a helmet were displayed in the case there, along with literature and pictures. That was all I needed to see.
<><><> <><><> <><><>

They invited us out to their Thanksgiving day weekend event in 1998 (that which does not kill me makes me stronger ) which ramped our 15th c clothing acquisition, at least mine, into full gear. I didn't have evertyhing, but was able to play, sort of, it was after all my very first event so admittedly I had a tendency to get under foot at times, hence the "that which does not kill me" statement, though the weather did its level best. *chuckle*

When we returned. The first thing we did was talk to one of our friends. He liked the idea and came on board. Then we met our friend Pieter and we were off and "running".

Starting a group is sometimes fast paced and sometimes it seems like you have plateaued and are never going to get anywhere. Our group has growth spurts.

Our group is a combination. As I said before, Wolfe Argent started from scratch. However, many members have come from other groups.

Two members had been part of another living history group, American Civil War. This gave them some insight into how Living History/Re-enactment groups operated and how to make the group expand. Most of our members have come to us through three avenues: public demonstrations at the local museum, participation on this Bulletin Board and AA, and our own website or another website with links to ours.

Another member came to us from a group down south. Up in the area for school, she still wanted to participate with an LH group and she found us.

Several of our latest members were or still are members of the SCA and are able to strike a balance between the two worlds. They bring with them skills and knowledge and a willingness to try their hand at living history and experimental archaeology. One of the current projects is a brigadine pattern. (I am taking photos of the process to be shown at a later date.)

We have had several contacts via e-mail. Some serious, some just looking for information about the time period and Burgundy in specific. Bob always writes back with information about the group, or the information requested. He responds to follow-up questions, as soon as he can.

If we meet someone at a museum show, we exchange email addresses or phone numbers. We usually wait for the person to make first contact with their questions and then respond. Once the e-mails have been exchanged and their is still interest, we either invite them to a meeting (this is usually offered up front) or we meet them without the crowd. Phone numbers have been exchanged and calls have been made.

I think the techniques for meeting and bringing in new members is basically the same, though I can't answer this question from the SCA POV or the other larger organizations as I was never a member.