I'm curious if anyone has any exprience with or thoughts on:
~a modern beer or ale that would be similar to one period to 1390s Brittany.
~how do folks handle serving beer while out on campaign? Do you crack bottles at home and pour into a wooden keg? stone crocks?

This will be our first portrayal out in the field for the full day without modern cheats at reasonable distance. I am very excited but a bit overwhelmed thinking through all the details. I think I've gotten food and kitchen mostly figured out. But it would be nice to let the boys have their beer.

Thank you!

Martin

--------------------

--------------------

--------------------

A good simulant is a belgian white ale. I personally prefer "Blue Moon" brand. You can keep the bottles in a tent and serve it by emptying the bottles into pichers.

--------------------

--------------------

I'm not sure that Lyndsey really is looking for ale rather than beer. Since the locale is Brittany (which isn't France anymore than Wales is England)then I'm not sure when hops were added. Certainly the English ale of the C15th wasn't hopped, but there was an ongoing arguement in England between 'good English ale' and the nasty foreign (Flemish) import of beer (which was hopped). So Flanders at least had hopped beer as we (almost) know it.

Ironic really that the modern British defenders of traditional Beer should call themselves CAMRA (CAMpaign for Real Ale)and bemoan the death of 'good English ale' against nasty foreign imported Lager ... since the very beer they are defending is the nasty foreign import of the C15th! In fact evenb the complaints and language are the same ... the new stuff is too strong, it gets people drunk and acting like louts ... all quite comical really and totally irrelevant to the original question ... but just to say don't necessarily use England as a good illustration of the beer/ale on the Continent.

That's sort of the point. During the course of the C15th ale (unhopped) was being replaced by beer (hopped). However the original post referenced a C14th date (1390) and a non-English locale (Brittany). So whilst beer was fairly commonplace by the end of the C15th in England it wasn't common at the start of the century in England at any rate ... although I can't recall the earliest reference ... but regardless of it's prevelance in England in the later C14th (i.e. probably very low) the question is how prevelant was it in Brittany. And for that question I'm very much afraid I have no answer.

--------------------

You need to look for Rodenbach, or Duchess De Bourgogne. Both are an interesting mix of an aged beer mixed with a younger one. The taste is a little sour afterwards, but rather pleasent.

The thinking I have is that akin to wines, where we know that wines that had gone off would have been mixed with newer better wines, 'powled' or soured beers would have been mixed with fresher, younger ones and then drunk to avoid wastage.

--------------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by James Bretlington:
Resurrecting a dead thread here, but I've found a good Belgian beer or two that make sense to me as being something that would be found.

You need to look for Rodenbach, or Duchess De Bourgogne. Both are an interesting mix of an aged beer mixed with a younger one. The taste is a little sour afterwards, but rather pleasent.

The thinking I have is that akin to wines, where we know that wines that had gone off would have been mixed with newer better wines, 'powled' or soured beers would have been mixed with fresher, younger ones and then drunk to avoid wastage.

---

Hi James,

Have to agree with you that those are two nice Belgians. I brought a bottle of Rodenbach "Grand Cru" and a bottle of Duchess de Bourgogne to the Wolf Argent annual meeting last week. Delicious!!

However, I'm not sure that they represent a medieval style of beer. They are both versions of Flemish sour ales where the sour taste is a deliberate effect. Aging beer in oak barrels left over from some other use is a current rage (Captain Lawrence Brewing Co in Pleasantville, NY has an entire line of beers aged in wine barrels, port barrels, whiskey barrels, brandy barrels, etc.) but I haven't seen a reference to it being done in the middle ages.

Also, I don't recall ever seeing a reference to mixing old beer with new in commercial brewing. There would have been three kinds of breer available in Brittany in the late 14th century: home brewing for household consumption, local commercial brewing, and imported beer. Home brewers would have done whatever they felt like and left us virtually no record of what they did. The commercial brewers would have been taxed and regulated. They would have hidden any practices that didn't comply with the regulations. I think it unlikely that beer could have been stored in oak barrels for a year and then mixed with new beer the way Duchess de Bourgogne does now. They can do it now because they use sterile brewing techniques and mechanical temperature control. Without those it would have been a a low probability crap shoot that you would get anything remotely drinkable.

Unfortunately for us today it is almost impossible to say what was in medieval beer. For example, the most common beer in the 14th century was flavored with "gruit" and we don't really know what that was. It might not even be one thing, but rather a class of flavorings.

Home brewers might have tried to stretch their beer by mixing slightly off and/or old beers with new, but I'd need some evidence to give me confidence that a commercial brewer would have opened a barrel, found it a little off, and poured it into a new barrel with some new beer to salvage it. That's a lot of work to go through, it wastes the new beer (If you have 10 barrels of bad beer and 10 barrels of good beer, do you really make more money by having 20 barrels of poor beer?), and you have to be confident of getting it past experienced government revenue officers. I'm pretty confident that they couldn't have done it deliberately to achieve a particular flavor like modern Flemish sour ales do without modern brewing techniques and equipment.

Best Regards,

--------------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by James Bretlington:
Damn, there goes my justification for a pleasant tipple during the day!

---

Aux contraire, just like we can't say for sure what the beer was like, we can't say for sure what it wasn't like. We can only rule certain things out.

In general I'd avoid bottom fermenting yeasts (lagers/pilzners) because those would have only been brewed in cold locations at cold times of year.

Avoid anything with rice in it (Bud, Miller, Japanese beers, etc) though those are generally bottom fermented anyway.

Favor things that taste good at "cellar" temperature, because you can't ice them and things that aren't too carbonated 'cause they didn't bottle condition.

Other than that, drink what you like. Any kind of grain including oats goes. Add fruit or honey if you like. Almost any spice is OK. Unfortunately for me, two of my favorite beer flavorings, chocolate and coffee, are out. Weak beer is OK. Strong beer is OK.

Go hoppy depending on what time and place you are re-enacting. Hopping starts in Germany and spreads slowly through the low countries into France. It spreads south east into Bohemia at the same time.

As the earlier thread mentions, there was a big fight in England in the 15th and 16th century between the "ale" brewers, who didn't use hops, and the "beer" brewers who did. That was an English Thing and both drinks were brewed and imported and exported in England all at the same time. All modern English ale is what in the middle ages would have been called beer because virtually all modern ale is hopped.

Sour or sweet or dry or bitter, it's all good.

Cheers!

Note sometimes... as we serve food to cast members as part of our recreation of a medieval/renaissance feast at the ren faire, we have a small fridge hidden in one of our tent to keep things fresh and we also have ice supplied to us by the organisers as we are also an official water station for the cast at the faire.

I prefer the more flavourful tipples anyway...

--------------------

If so, we ought to try to experiment with making some Belgian Ales...

--------------------

This is slightly off the original question but is perhaps worth adding for historical value... Germany made a decree called the "Reinheitsgebot" or German Purity Law of 1516 regarding the brewing of beer. It stipulated that only barley, hops, and water could be used in the production of beer. (Yes, you need to include yeast and its interesting that it's not mentioned...) It also stipulated what a specific quantity would cost at various times during the year. This law, however, didn't cover the additives for certain modern preservatives or preserving techniques. This law was modified recently to permit waivers for imported beer, but native beer must still follow this regulation. Not originally listed or specified in the law was the ingredient of wheat but its obviously accepted...

The catch of trying to source a true pure beer in this country brewed in the old world is its very short shelf life. Also of note is that, except for storing in cellars, beer was not chilled. So sourcing a true medieval beer in the US would be a challenge.

One of the big factors in the taste of beer, besides the blend of hops, etc., is the type and resulting flavour of the yeast added. To make small batches of beer now, we add packets of yeast. Back then, they would have simply had a vat of what they'd already produced and used that vat as a source of starter yeast.

So if you decide to make your own beer and are trying for a certain taste, you would need to look at what yeasts are available for you to use.

As to what was brewed in the UK? Probably something similar. I think its really interesting that the need for a purity law was enacted in the first place. Obviously guilds and certainly early brewers were in competition. The fact that a law was enacted is evidence that extended disputes over beer and its contents were going on at that time.

A couple of interesting links regarding period beer for what is now the UK... At least they offer sources in the article that might offer some worthwhile information...
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~pwp/tofi/medieval_english_ale.html
http://hbd.org/brewery/library/PeriodRen.html

Interestingly enough, we see images of this very practise in German sources - Das Mittlealteres Hausbuch has several such images.

--------------------

--------------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by chef de chambre:
Paul, do you do any brewing?

If so, we ought to try to experiment with making some Belgian Ales...

---

Bob,

We don't have to experiment. I've got a case of 22 oz Belgian triples I brewed last year sitting in my basement. I'll give you a couple. Watch out though, these are something like 12% ABV!

Best Regards,

quote:

---

Originally posted by Friedrich:
Mmmmmm... Bier!

One of the big factors in the taste of beer, besides the blend of hops, etc., is the type and resulting flavour of the yeast added. To make small batches of beer now, we add packets of yeast. Back then, they would have simply had a vat of what they'd already produced and used that vat as a source of starter yeast.

So if you decide to make your own beer and are trying for a certain taste, you would need to look at what yeasts are available for you to use.

---

Very true, yeast is very important in determining the flavor. For example, a lot of what gives Flemish sour ales their sour flavor is the yeast they use. The yeast also determines the alchohol content, which affects the taste, and the alchohol tolerance of the yeast determines how much of the fermentables are left, which determines the sweetness or dryness of the beer relative to the amount of malt used.

However, getting Belgian yeasts is not as hard as one might think. Yeast stays alive in unpasteurized, bottle-conditioned beer for about six months. A lot of the best imported (meaning into the US) Belgians are unpasteurized, bottle-conditioned, so you can recover yeast from them, similar to the way medieval brewers did.

Best Regards,