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Author Topic: Waxed linen "panes" for lanterns?
Flittie
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posted 02-15-2007 10:58 AM     Profile for Flittie     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
In "Before the Mast" (book on Mary Rose shipwreck artifacts), there is a reference to a lantern recovered from another 16th-century shipwreck (La Trinidad Valencera) having smooth staves for insertion (if that's the right word) of "lights" or panes of waxed linen, as opposed to grooved staves to hold horn panes. Has anyone found other references to waxed linen being used instead of horn for lantern panes? Any idea what weight of linen and type of wax might be suitable?
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Woodcrafter
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posted 02-16-2007 08:09 AM     Profile for Woodcrafter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I am not familiar with that reference. But I question the 'waxed' linen theory. How can they tell the linen was waxed? There must be a reference to it in an original document.

Oiled linen makes more sense to me. Oiled brown paper was used for window panes in the 18th and 19th centuries. Oil will make the linen more see through by keeping the material wet. Wax on the other hand will clog the holes in the linen.

The weight of linen should be as light as possible, as this would allow the most light to pass through.

The wax could only be bees wax. a linen source

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Woodcrafter
14th c. Woodworking


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Flittie
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posted 02-16-2007 08:38 AM     Profile for Flittie     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The reference to "waxed linen" comes from the manifest of the ship La Trinidad Valencera, sunk 1588.

Actually, wax makes more sense to me than oiled linen for this purpose. Oiled linen would be flammable, wouldn't it? And these pieces of linen would be surrounding an open candle flame. I'm not sure how transparent the lantern panes were expected to be. The Mary Rose lanterns apparently all had horn panes. The linen would have to be comparable to horn in translucence, not glass. (I don't think glass was commonly used until later.) While fine linen is the most translucent, that's assuming that translucence was the main consideration for people making and using the lantern. Heavier but loosely woven linen would still allow some light to pass through but would be more durable, cheaper, and perhaps more resistant to drafts and wind.

I'll have to keep looking into this. Perhaps it could be an opportunity for experimental archaeology.


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chef de chambre
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posted 02-16-2007 02:10 PM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Flittie,

The waxed linen wold be about as flammable as the oiled paper. I hadn't heard of this method before, it is very interesting. I don't think it would have been more economical than horn, both would have been readily available and inexpensive. It would be interesting to wax some linen and stretch it over a frame, and put a candle behind it and then compare it to a horn pane and see if there is any advantage to either method.

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Bob R.


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gregory23b
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posted 02-18-2007 08:58 AM     Profile for gregory23b   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"Oiled linen would be flammable, wouldn't it? "

Not of it was dried oil, ie linseed with a lead drying agent (litharge). If a damp and not dried oil, the volatiles would be emitted for too long.

When reading 'oiled' it might be useful to think thick gloopy boiled linseed oil with possibly the addition of rosin (makes it a varnish then).

As per the AA response, what might be a 'lantern' may be something else.

But oiled and waxed linens were used to make fenestrals.

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history is in the hands of the marketing department - beware!


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Jeffrey Hull
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posted 02-18-2007 08:53 PM     Profile for Jeffrey Hull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Not to stray off-topic, but curious about this:

Did they use those star-prisms below deck at that date to amplify and project the light?

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JLH

ARMA Fechter


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Charles I
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posted 02-19-2007 04:56 PM     Profile for Charles I     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I tried this and got lots of fire... But, I noticed that if you have enough distance between the candle flame and the panes (six inches I guessed, didn't measure ) or use a stubby candle and/or solid wood or horn top, you can get a decent bit of light before it goes incendiary. I used beeswax and some linen which was a bit heavier than hankie weight. I think horn would be the better path here...

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In every life some rain must fall...


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Woodcrafter
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posted 02-19-2007 10:48 PM     Profile for Woodcrafter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Fumes burn, solids and liquids don't.

Gasoline readily gives off fumes. In liquid form, it will put out a match. However getting the match into the gasoline is the tricky part as it's ignition point is -45 degree F.

This same goes for all materials. Wood gives off fumes at 400 degrees and the fumes ignite at 450 degrees.

Wax and oil gives off fumes at a much lower temperature. I could only find 199 degrees F for parrafin wax which is quite soft.

Votive candles are hollow wax candles that allow the light to shine through. So yes you could use bees wax to make lantern panes. Just do not allow the candle to heat up the container. A candle flame has a temperature of 600 - 1400 degrees F. With a lantern, the top or lid will trap heat and raise the temperature.

Like gasoline, you can put out a match in oil. Oil needs much higher temperatures to give off fumes, making it much safer.

Now comes the bad news.
The thinner you make an item, the more readily it gives off fumes when heated. This is because the heat quickly passes through it and warms both sides. So when fabric (which gives off fumes when heated and therefore will ignite) is coated in wax or oil (which also give off fumes), you are lowering the temperature that is needed to ignite the fumes, as you are creating a larger area that is easier to heat.

So to sum up. If you had an open top lantern that would keep the temperature down, you could use oil or wax to make the cloth transparent. However both oil and wax would attract dust. Bees wax was expensive at the time. Olive oil or oil from animal fats would work well I should think but some will go rancid.

Various ignition temperatures

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Woodcrafter
14th c. Woodworking


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gregory23b
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posted 02-20-2007 12:54 AM     Profile for gregory23b   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I would seriously not recommend using any oil that can not dry in a shortish time, as woodcrafter rightly says, fumes is everything.

Wax does seem an odd one as it is by nature soft, so unless there was some other treatment to the cloth (even then it wouldn't reduce the fumes from the wax) I would steer clear, unless the flame source is far enough away that it does not create fumes.

Flittie, re the Trinidad lantern, it could also be possible that oiled parchment was used for it.

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history is in the hands of the marketing department - beware!


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Woodcrafter
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posted 02-20-2007 08:25 AM     Profile for Woodcrafter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
It is also quite possible that the author of the above book is mistaken, or has been misled by poor translation. Unless the lantern set fire to the ship and that is why it sunk

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Woodcrafter
14th c. Woodworking


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gregory23b
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posted 02-20-2007 10:53 AM     Profile for gregory23b   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
That is also a possibility

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history is in the hands of the marketing department - beware!


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Flittie
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posted 02-20-2007 01:56 PM     Profile for Flittie     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I agree that it is possible that the original Spanish wording of the inventory of the ship La Trinidad Valencera was ambiguous or mistranslated into English. The citation of the "waxed linen" was from a book on wrecks of the Spanish Armada. I can track down the Armada book to see the original context of the reference to the lanterns. I may also be able to contact the author of the Armada book. It may be possible to also find a citation of the ship's inventory in the original Spanish.

Actually, according to an online archaeology magazine article, La Trinidad Valencera was an Armada ship that grounded off the coast of Ireland and broke up after the crew abandoned her. Some of the artifacts from this ship and other Armada ships that sank off Ireland are now in the Ulster Museum in Belfast. Whatever the truth about the lanterns, there may be other interesting artifacts that I can enjoy learning about.


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Marianne
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posted 10-01-2007 02:40 AM     Profile for Marianne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hello!

I'm Spanish... if you can get an inkling on what full the expression in Spanish was, I can try to search for more information, and see if any other translations are possible.

I just tried a search on the obvious term for waxed, "encerado" and got 2 hits from the 1400s, both referring to waxed cloth:

1. "deuen ser cerradas con vedrieras o con lienço encerado" (they must be closed with glass or with waxed linen).
They're talking of windows in times of contagious disease. I enclose the full text as given out by the database at the bottom of the message.

2. "& las ventanas con vidrio: o con paño encerado: porque entre la luz / & no el aire podrido." (and the windows [closed] with glass, or with waxed cloth, so that the light may enter and not the putrid air.)

Searching for "ençerado" (the expected variant spelling) gives 8 more hits, also from the 1400s. All appear to refer to waxed thread to dental surgery, except for one waxed cloth that is wrapped around some parchment.

A similar seach on CORDE for the period 1400-1650 leads to a good number of examples, but only one is mentioned in the context of a lantern. Again we have windows, surgery aids and medicines, parchments wrapped in waxed cloth, containers closed with waxed cloth...
The one about the lantern doesn't really clear much up... It's reference 3 below, which is from a sequel to Don Quixote. It seems to be talking of fantasy people, or perhaps oddly-costumed American natives. It's cites feathers and such and in the same breaths mentions "la madera que haze diáfano encerado a las linternas" (the wood that makes transparent waxed-thing for lanterns). Here I translate "encerado" as 'waxed-thing' because it's a noun. Other findings also drop the cloth/linen/whatever part and mention an encerado for a window, for example.
There's also some mentions to encerados surrounding the Christian military camp in the conquest of Granada.

I'm including (6) because it mentions "a box with its encerado". Maybe this is the kind of item they found on board this ship?

Hope that helps!!

Marianne


From http://www.corpusdelespanol.org/

1. NOTE TITLE: Tratado útil AUTHOR: Licenciado Fores DATE: [__] SOURCE: Electronic Texts and Concordances of the Madison Corpus of Early Spanish Manuscripts and Printings. Prepared by John ONeill. (Madison and New York, 1999). CD-ROM. (ISBN 1-56954-122-1). Hispanic Society of America: Textos y concordancias electrónicos del Corpus Médico Español
sana el ayre corrompido a ij pestilencial. despues destas las que son fechas fazia oriente son mejores & deuen ser cerradas con vedrieras o con lienço [ encerado. ] // // Rectificacion del ayre. / No se deuen leuantar en este tiempo mucho de man~ana antes quel sol salga sino despues a lo menos media

2. NOTE TITLE: De epidemia et peste; Tratado de la peste. AUTHOR: Pietro de Tossignano; atribuido a Vasco de Taranta. DATE: [__] SOURCE: Electronic Texts and Concordances of the Madison Corpus of Early Spanish Manuscripts and Printings. Prepared by John ONeill. (Madison and New York, 1999). CD-ROM. (ISBN 1-56954-122-1). Zaragoza Pablo Hurus 1494-08-15.
& confuerta el coraçon. No vaya por la villa: mas occupe se en algo dentro de casa conlas puertas cerradas: & las ventanas con vidrio: o con paño [ encerado: ] porque entre la luz / & no el aire podrido. Por consiguiente esquiue se qualquier fedor: & acresciente se tempradamente buenos

From CORDE (http://corpus.rae.es/cordenet.html):

3. - ¿Y qué avemos de her -dixo Sancho- nosotros con essa Cu? ¿Es alguna joya de las que avemos de lo traher de las justas?

- No -replicó don Quixote-; que aquel Cu es un plumaje de dos relevadas plumas, que suelen ponerse algunos sobre la cabeça, a vezes de oro, a vezes de plata y a vezes de la madera que haze diáfano [Anterior]encerado[Siguiente] a las linternas, * llegando unos con dichas
Página I, 86
plumas hasta el signo Aries, otros al de Capricornio y otros se fortifican en el castillo de San Cervantes. *

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
AÑO: 1614
AUTOR: Fernández de Avellaneda, Alonso
TÍTULO: Don Quijote de la Mancha
PAÍS: ESPAÑA
TEMA: 12.Relato extenso novela y otras formas similares
PUBLICACIÓN: Martín de Riquer, Espasa-Calpe, S. A. (Madrid), 1972


4. y me los envió á Madrid en una caja guarnecida tambien con su encerado
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
AÑO: c 1594
AUTOR: Garibay, Esteban de
TÍTULO: Memorias de Garibay
PAÍS: ESPAÑA
TEMA: 19.Memorias y diarios
PUBLICACIÓN: Pascual de Gayangos, Real Academia de la Historia (Madrid), 1854

[ 10-01-2007: Message edited by: Marianne ]


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