Currently starting on baggage trains. Does anybody have or know good sources for information on this topic?
Im particularily interested in Wagons, how many horses or ox did different types of wagon take, and how much could they carry, both volume and weight?

Cheers
Joram

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I think if you are looking specifically for things related to Charles the Bold, I would tend to see if I could find these two books.

We had the one on artillary ordered but it got lost in the mail. After 2 years, I doubt it will mysteriously show up at our door.

"L'Artillarie de Ducs de Bourgoigne, 1468-1477" J. Garnier

"L'armie de Ducs de Bourgoigne, 1468-1477"
Brusten

It is an unusual spelling of Burgundy. Alternate spelling might be Bourgogne and the dates might be 1465 rather than 1468. I don't have the books to hand, but these have all sorts of information in them.

Hope it helps,

Jenn

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Thanks for the book suggestions, I shall try to get them.

If anybody else has references, I am still interested.

Cheers
Joram

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Clark, John (1996), The Medieval Horse and Its Equipment C. 1150 - C. 1450. Medieval Finds from Excavations in London. London: Her Majesty's Stationery Office Books. ISBN: 0-11-290485-8.

Which also contains some information about carts, how many horses for one, weight that could be carried with such a cart. How much such a cart would cost, how much the horses would cost, in what context etc.
I guess Joram already has the book. Still, very informative so worth mentioning to everyone else interested in horses and their equipment.

Are there perchance any books on baggage trains in the 14th C. that anyone here knows of?
If not, I guess Clarks book is the one for me to help me figure out about baggage trains in my period (1360s).

Bertus

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I still need to read Vaughans, Philip the Good, so have missed that nice titbit of information about the carts for the Archers.

So if thats 20 archers gear per cart, if we say that they are probably 2 horse carts which can carry around 1000lbs of gear at normal load, thats 50lbs of gear per archer. I wonder if the 200 carts also included food for the Archers, or just their personal effects, and how about arrows? are they considered sepperatly?

As for the quote from Commeyns, I always interpreted that to mean per 9 man lance, although the battle of the public weal was before the introduction of Charles the bolds compagnies d'Ordonnace, the structure of 9 man lances 10 of which were ordered under a Disenier was already a French model.

So if we postulate that about 20 people per cart was considered neccessary under ideal situations, then 90 people per cart in an unfavorable situation, is plausable.

Intersted to hear other peoples opinions, and research!

Cheers
Joram

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So for 2 captains, each with a servant, and 100 archers = 1 cart per 52 men, which sits somewhere between the 20 and 90 men previously estimated. It's worth noting the York archers were mounted.

page 223:

Um die Kriegsleistungen an Mannschaft der sächsischen Städte untereinander vergleichen zu können, sei noch eine Zusammenstellung vom Jahre 1474, September 3, gegeben. Kurfürst Ernst und Herzog Albrecht erliessen ein Rundschreiben zur Heeresfolge. Aus fünfzehn Städten kamen die Antworten, welche zur besseren Übersicht tabellarisch wiedergegeben seien (*24):

Leipzig......350 Trabanten und Wagenknechte, 30 Wagen, 3 Steinbüchsen, "mit Reisigen dagegen pfleget die Stadt nicht zu dienen".

Oschatz......4 Reisige, 120 Fussknechte, 10 Rüstwagen, 1 Büchsenwagen, 1 Steinbüchse

Grofsenhain..80 Mann, 6 Wagen, 1 Speisewagen, 1 Büchse

Chemnitz.....4 Reisige, 3 Steinbuchsen, 10 Wagen und soviel Trabanten und Fussknechte als dazu gehören.

Dresden......3 Reisige, 60 Fussknechte, 2 Buchsen, 4 Wagen

Rochlitz.....3 Reisige, 60 Fussknechte, 1 Steinbüchse und soviel Wagen als nötig.

Mittweida....3 Reisige, 60 Fussknechte, 5 Wagen, keine Büchse.

Döbeln.......2 Reisige, 60 Fussknechte, 6 Speise- und Rüstwagen, 1 Steinbüchse.

Pegau........50 Trabanten, 5 Wagen, 1 Büchse.

Delitzsch....50 Trabanten, 5 Wagen, 1 Büchse.

Radeberg.....22 Fussknechte, 2 Wagen

Lommatzsch...20 Fussknechte, 2 Wagen

Groitzsch....hat einen "alten gesatzten Dienst, einen stete stehenden Rüstwagen mit 2 Pferden und 2 Wagenknechten", ausserdem 2 Fussknechte.

Senftenberg..keinen Anschlag, weil es dem Aufgebot des Amtmanns hat Folge leisten müssen

Freiberg.....verspricht die Hälfte des Stadtaufgebotes, entschuldigt sich aber wegen Krankheit.

*24
Neues Archiv für Sächsische Geschichte XI, S. 151 f. Ermisch, Zur Statistik der sächsischen Städte.

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And what are Reisige?
Mounted people? Then why so little?

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Riesig is a term of size, meaning like: collossal, gargantuan, absolutely friggin huge.

Fussknechte you have to break down: Fuß & Knechte. Fuß = base, pedestal or foot. Knechte = farm labourer or servant. So it would mean your standard levie or "farmhand soldier"

Your man for the Germans,

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~ Jason Banditt Adams
Illustrator for the gaming industry
www.Rogue-Artist.com

so according to you:
- Leipzig delivered 350 bodyguards for officers and no other foot soldiers?
- The Saxon cities were in the habit of each delivering a few giants when going to war for the duke and were also in the habit of especially mentioning them in documents?
- The Saxon cities were in the habit of delivering 'farmhand soldiers' when going to war for their duke?

Fuss meaning foot in German, was as far as I had already figured out yes. Knecht in dutch today still means servant yes. But I get the feeling it had a slight different meaning/status back then.

No offence but I think you're not the guy that can answer my questions Jance

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Trabant I got out of Ospreys "Landsknechts" from MAA series. The rest I just used my handy-dandy dictionary. You didnt give me a refference as to where the words were used, just the words.

I was just trying to help, no need for all of that.

I wish you all the best in your endeavors,

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~ Jason Banditt Adams
Illustrator for the gaming industry
www.Rogue-Artist.com

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As a for instance, while my German isn't the best, I believe

quote:

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Oschatz......4 Reisige, 120 Fussknechte, 10 Rüstwagen, 1 Büchsenwagen, 1 Steinbüchse

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quote:

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Grofsenhain..80 Mann, 6 Wagen, 1 Speisewagen, 1 Büchse

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I would not read too much into later definitions, as the system which produced the definitions was yet to be created by Maximillian when these lists were written.

For this one

quote:

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Leipzig......350 Trabanten und Wagenknechte

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Hows about 350 pioneers and wagoneers? I'm uncertain regarding trabaten in this context, but Wagenknechte are surely drovers. Given the rest of their list being wagons (a lot) and cannon, that is precisely what would be needed to transport them over Medieval roads.

Primary German speakers would be much more clearer on detail, but we technical GErman and conversational German are very different things.

[ 12-11-2004: Message edited by: chef de chambre ]

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My redesigned thoughts:
Leipzig......350 Trabanten und Wagenknechte
"Trabanten" not so much as "Bodyguard" but "Rearguard" to protect the wagons, not officers. More plausable?

This "Reisige" is what really gets me. I cannot find Reisige anywhere. I DID find Riesige, hence the "Gargantuan".

Ok, now that I see where you are coming from Brutus...
"mit Reisigen dagegen pfleget die Stadt nicht zu dienen".

I'll see what I can find Monday.

In service,

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~ Jason Banditt Adams
Illustrator for the gaming industry
www.Rogue-Artist.com

I'm pretty sure I've seen part of this list in a military history translated into English by a native German speaker at one point, and the trabanten come across as pioneers, and some mention of the axes and spades for them in another source.

Medieval roads were dreadful, and clearing paths and building bridges for armies and baggage to pass was pretty commonplace (a good reference to the neccessity being the rolls of Edward I military campaigns in Wales and Scotland in the late 13th & early 14th century), as well as the famous mention of them in use by the forces of Philip the Good during the War of Public Weal in 1465

I could be wrong, and you might be right - it has been 10 years since my last undergrad course in German, and I don't use it often, but we have some native German speakers on the board that might clear this up.

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Reisige(r) = knight(s) on horseback or mounted mercenary(ies).

Trabant = gentleman-at-arms or footman, which would be consistant with an early post. I.e., the men guarding the wagons.

BTW, I've seen Drabant used to refer to Polish personal bodyguards (this could be a whole regiment to protect an important magnate). It is likely it is a cogante with the German trabant and may give more background on the usage.

(German definitions from a thick, hardback Cassell's German Dictionary)

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Like I said, I think I've seen the list translated, or partially translated at one point by someone more competant than me with German by far, and I'm pretty sure I saw pioneers on it.

Given Reisige and it's meaning, I'd wager they are the pioneers, and of the trabants we are uncertain, other than being some type of infantryman.

If the split between them and the drovers were 300 trabants to 50 wagenknechte, that gives us 1 wagen for every 10 trabants, and 5 wagoneers/drovers per wagon, which sounds like a pretty reasonable split.

But what precisely is meant by trabants?

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I like the idea of the Reisige being pioneers. It explains their small numbers in this list.

With my high school knowledge of German I would translate the Rüstwagen to wagons carrying armour, arms and more in general relevant other equipment.

If there was one wagon for +/- 10 men, it might mean at least the 'group' stuff of these men was packed onto 'their' wagon, perhaps including a tent and cooking utensils.

[ 12-13-2004: Message edited by: Bertus ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:

Medieval roads were dreadful, and clearing paths and building bridges for armies and baggage to pass was pretty commonplace (a good reference to the neccessity being the rolls of Edward I military campaigns in Wales and Scotland in the late 13th & early 14th century),...

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I'd be a bit wary of drawing too general a conclusion as to the state of roads in Europe based on the evidence of Scotland and Wales (barbarian outposts of the civilised world ... and that's today ... said as a VERY tongue in cheek Englishman).

Major roads in England and nodoubt continental Europe were not impassable for heavy goods traffic. The movement of wool and dyestuffs are testament to that with carts and horses moving regularly and consistently throughout the year ... including autumn and winter.

Moving ordnance and tens of thousands of men ... that may however be a different question ....

Cheers
Dave

thought I didn´t read the whole thread, I reckognized, that you´re having a few problems with german terms. So here are a few translations:

Trabanten: could mean "bodyguards", as one of you guessed; the term was later in the 16th cent. used for bodyguards of important men (like dukes,kings and the like); or just simply "follower"

Reisige: ist the german equivalent for men at arms. These were (mostly) professionals, armed in a "knightly fashion" and (again mostly) on horseback.

Speisewagen: wagons carrying foodsupplies

Rüstwagen: can mean two things: first wagons carrying armour and weapons, and secondly, the term could imply the armoured wagons invented by the hussites, that were quite widespread in the empire in the second half of the 15.th cent.

Fussknechte: "Knecht" today means servant, the medieval meaning goes also in the way of an "armed man", a soldier. The term "Fussknecht" in most cases describes an footsoldier, without any notification of him being an professional or belonging to a city levy.

Steinbüchse: "Stein" means stone, and "Büchse" (or the older spelling "Buchse" or even "busse") mean a gun, not telling of which size; it could be anything from a siege gun to an small handgun. Steinbüchse would be the first, a siege gun firing stone roundshot.

Ok, that´s from me.
Just one more question: Bertus, do you have the complete article? It sounds very interesting.

Bye,
Tomasz

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Thanks for your help.
Yes I photocopied the whole article. And I've now made scans of its pages.
Get them while you all can. I'll probably take them offline again in a few weeks.
http://www.bertbrok.dds.nl/wehrhaftefreiberg/

[ 12-14-2004: Message edited by: Bertus ]

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thanks for scanning. Got it and am about to read it.

A pleasant day to you all,

Tomasz

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Since I´m not an expert on eastern german cities (my field of research lies rahter more to the south ;-) ). So I can have a more or less educated guess.

I think the answer would be a mixture of your first two ideas.
In southern cities it was possible for rich people to just pay a fee instead of going to war (poor people in most cases couldn´t afford this fee) or to just pay a mercenary who would be outfitted in equivalent to their outfit. And this depended on the amount of taxes one had to pay; these lwas differ from city to city, but most men could afford only the simplest military kit.
And I think this is where the mass of footsoldiers cited above comes from: since every citizen was to have his own weapons & armour (depending on his tax), most of the craftsman, smaller merchants etc. would join the levy as a footsoldier, be it wielding a staffweapon (in Germany esp. a halberd) or a range-weapon.

Now as I write this, another thing comes to my mind. You don´t have to train as much with footmens´ arms, the 2 to 4 annual trainings that were held inside the cities would be sufficient. Fighting in full armour from horseback and not losing your balance (and important things like your weapon, life, etc.) is a completely different thing, so it´s very possible that professionals had their price and that poorer cities couldn´t afford them (this doesn´t count for Leipzig or Dresden, which both were prospering towns throughout the late middle ages).

Hope this helps - and you are able to understand my english ;-)

Bye,
Tomasz

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Looking at those where both Reisige & Fussknechte are ennumerated ...

Oschatz 4 Reisige : 120 Fussknechte ... 1 : 30
Dresden 3 Reisige : 60 Fussknechte ... 1 : 20
Rochlitz 3 Reisige : 60 Fussknechte ... 1 : 20
Mittweida 3 Reisige : 60 Fussknechte ... 1 : 20
Dobeln 2 Reisige : 60 Fussknechte ... 1 : 30

It's not much ... but it would fit with other continental structures often centred on 20s

Just a thought to mull over ??