So right now some friends and I are working on getting our 1340 Scottish Household together. I am Robert de Moffet (Fic.), who is the son of Thomas de Moffet and nephew of Sir Adam de Moffet (both real persons).

From what I can tell the two brothers Thomas (the younger) and Adam (the older, and apparant head of the Moffet family at the time) have around 16 fairly large charters of lands by the 1320s or 1330s. Adam is also known as the Lord of Knock (Scottish Baronial level in the medieval period?). The Moffet's/Moffat's have a load of arms from the mid to late 16th century on but the earliest is from the early 16th century. I figure that this likely is the main family arms from earlier.

My question is what would Robert, Thomas's son and Adam's nephews arms be? It seems using family arms was fine in much of Western Europe including Scotland. I am ready to paint a few shields with my arms but am holding off till I can get some feed back. If Sir Robert became a knight how would this affect his arms?

Some tricky heraldry help please. I have looked over a number of standard works on heraldry but am still lacking the conviction to just go out and paint them.

I believe that there are some marginal differences between Scottish and English heraldry...though if you're going for accuracy, the English College of Heraldry did not receive their charter until 1483 I believe under Richard III. I'm not sure exactly when "standards" emerged into what we've come to know today.

I have a few titles on my library shelf, but I think that the marks of cadency are going to be important.

Main Branch has the arms unchanged.
You're the son of the second son.

Main Field, your father would have differenced his arms with a label if your uncle had no heirs, if he has heirs, then his son would bear the label.

In Scotland sometimes the differencing is in the application of a border.

So, I think more details are required to figure out the cadence.

Here are some of the books I have looked at recently-

The Complete Book of Heraldry
The Complete Guide of Heraldry
The Oxford Guide to Heraldry

I have looked a few other ones about 6-8 months ago but cannot remember their titles.

Sir Adam does indeed have children so it is not a simple transfer of the family arms. That would be easier to do but in this case Robert is cousin to the gent who would inherit the family arms.

The reason I thought one in a family or household could perhaps use arms of another is that in the Bruce the author seems to indicate the practice on at least two occasions, so I figured that it was OK. That said hard to say if he was a master of heraldry in his time. I also wonder if two knights could share the same arms... seems to lead to lots of duels in Froissart.

So on the Ragman Roll there are two Moffets-Sir Thomas and his brother Robert. Sir Thomas has two sons, Adam and Thomas. I am taking off from Thomas, son of Thomas as we know nothing of his children but we know some of him as he was a supporter of Wallace and Bruce and had several charters of land given to him.

It seems likely that Thomas (d. c1300) then Adam (d. c.1350) were the family head and held the Moffet arms. By the end of the 16th there is another roll of arms with some 7-9 Moffet arms. It could be because the rule you mentioned that there were so many different arms attached to the family. That said there were some 14 groups of Moffats/Moffets by this time with their own charters of lands and holdings.

I really need to find something on medieval heraldry but the works I have found so far have all been short and specific articles about other aspects of heraldry and not dealt with this issue.

I will keep looking but let me know if you think of anything.

I think I might just do what seems to have been the norm regarding arms in the family and simply change the colors and leave the general set up the same. The problem is until the 16th there is not much info on Scottish heraldry.

Thanks for all the help!

I found this title:

INDLATER, A.M. SCOTS ARMORIALS from Earliest times to the start of the 18th century or ASPILOGIA SCOTICANA. 2006. Royal 4to. 112pp. A survey of all known Scottish Rolls of Arms with 40 pages of facsimiles of arms in colour. Bound blue cloth, gilt letters. New copy. [84] £18.00

I did find some medieval arms in Scotland from a handful of Scots who had sided with Edward I in the late 13th, early 14th. It does look like they used marks of cadency by the early 14th. Of couse of the five I have found, three disregard cadency marks completely.

Found this on the Scottish Registry info when looking for the Lord Lyon's info.

-Who can use a Coat of Arms?
Coats of Arms in Scotland can only belong to one person at a time. There is no single Coat of Arms which all people of the same name can use – often miscalled a “family Coat of Arms”. As Coats of Arms originated in order to identify a person it is clear that it would not be practical if more than one person could use exactly the same design. Arms descend to the heir in each generation of the person to whom they were originally granted and other descendants who bear the same surname may apply for a slightly different version of the Arms to be recorded in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland. In Scotland the shields of unrelated people with the same surname may bear similarities as the design will be based on the shield of the clan chief, the head of the family.-

Of course this may be a very non-medieval set of rules so I guess I will keep digging.

Thanks again for all the help!

RPM

[ 08-20-2010: Message edited by: Randall Moffett ]

[ 08-20-2010: Message edited by: Randall Moffett ]

-Edit-
I think I am just going to add three arrows gules to this one-
http://www.crossstitch-heraldry.com/Moffat_Coat_of_Arms_small.jpg

Of course I could just switch the colors as this other Moffat arms does-
http://www.allfamilycrests.com/m/moffat-family-crest-coat-of-arms.shtml

Or like this one which is like the one before but with a cross azure centre. http://www.thetreemaker.com/family-coat-m/moffatt.html

Any ideas? I thought the red arrows would be good as Sir Robert is hit with three arrows at Halidon Hill.

RPM

Moffet Household of Auldburn

The Moffet Household of Auldburn is the family, allies, retinue and servants of Sir Robert de Moffet, son of Sir Thomas de Moffet and nephew of Sir Adam de Moffet, Laird of Knock. Robert as the eldest son of Sir Thomas followed in the family tradition of arms and soon joined the conflict against England. Auldburn Household includes Robert Moffet himself, his wife, children, his retainers, soldiers and servants as well as several of his younger kinsmen and friends who had sought employ in his service. We seek to recreate what the lives of men, women and children would have been like in the dwelling of a noble household in the borderlands of south west Scotland during the fourteenth century from 1340 onward.

Robert Moffet

Robert Moffet was born in 1310 and is the oldest son of Sir Thomas Moffet, a knight with lands in Westerkirk, Annandale, Eskdale and Ewesdale. Many of these possessions were directly held from King Robert I. He is also the nephew of Sir Adam Moffet, lord of Knock and William Moffet, a royal ambassador of the king. Further Walter Moffet also an ambassador and a priest (and future Archdeacon of Lothian) is his cousin. Having been brought up during an age of conflict he was well instructed with skills of arms and tactics.

Starting around 1330 he began taking part in the constant skirmishes, raids and counter raids fought between English and Scottish forces. In 1332 he was given Auldburn as his residence and manor held of his father Thomas to provide for himself and his household, marrying Nicole de Brienne late in the same year. In 1333 Robert at last had his chance to participate in a large scale conflict. Having been refused permission by his father to fight against Edward III in the Weardale campaign in 1327 because of his age, Robert was keen to engage in a major military enterprise. Nominally in the company of William Douglass (though still a minor, he was the son of Earl James Douglass, a close ally of the Moffet family), he joined Sir Archibald Douglass, Earl James’s brother and the guardian of Scotland at the Battle of Halidon Hill in 1333. Unfortunately in this battle the Scottish army was severely defeated, Sir Archibald Douglass and his company destroyed, most being slain. Robert, though severely wounded by several arrows, was pulled from the carnage by a loyal soldier of his retinue. The next year he was rewarded by his bravery at Halidon by Hugh Douglass, Earl of Douglass (uncle to William and brother to Archibald-both having died at Halidon), who gave Robert the fief of Newkirk, in Annandale and knighted him.

In the mid 1330s Robert’s uncle, William Moffet ambassador to the king of England and the king of France, began a series of diplomatic missions for King David II. Robert was requested to accompany William, along with much of his retinue, to protect his uncle. In 1338 and 1339 Robert and his household we involved aiding the Castilian King Alfonso IX against Yusef I of Granada. While the fighting there was near constant Auldburn Household did not see the major battles of this conflict in 1340, having returned to Scotland summer of 1339. From there Robert has been engaged in various endeavors, from warfare, skirmishing and raids to diplomacy.

Currently Francis's daughter is chief.

I think in the end I am going to make it simple by keeping the design and just changing the colors.

Thanks again!

Sadly for my group I am moving 1000 miles northeast so who knows what will happen with Auldburn Household.

RPM