What was common practice for men of cote, regarding wearing the livery of a company? I suspect that men of cote would never under any but the most compelling circumstances ever wear anything but their own arms.

Soldiery (men at arms and archers) are a completely different issue, and I suspect that they could expect to be told what to wear regarding livery.

Thanks!

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What I am referring to are persons of the gentry, who bear their own family arms. Persons permitted by custom, tradition, or law to bear personal arms.

I think you would wear your arms - the only historical example of an association I can think of (it was a brotherhood of arms contract) is the 'Pomme d'Or', from the 1390's, and the members wore no livery, but had a little gold apple badge they would occasionally wear.

In the 15th century, on the other hand, English armies began to require all men wear the national livery on oversees expeditions, at least under a certain rank (and by rank, I men the King and his borthers).

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The next question, is this: when does the cross of St. George become frequently worn. I am of the belief that it was during Henry V's campaigns in the early 15th century in France.

As already mentioned the C15th does have a fair amount on this, it's more my area than the C14th. Unfortunately I can't really give you an answer for the C14th in England, however, the title of Banneret does begin to give a hint.

From what I have always understood of heraldry the title banneret denotes someone with the right to bear their banner in battle. Essentially this is the commander of a 'battle' or 'ward' of which there would be three in a typically arrayed English army.

The banner is the only flag bearing the personal arms of a man, other flags (Standards, pennons etc.) bearing their badge(s). So logically the only person wearing their personal arms ought to be the banneret, all others are, effectively, retained by them and 'should' be wearing their livery.

How far this was actually applied is another question and pictorial representations like the Beauchamp chronicles don't really help as they are using the personal arms to identify participants rather than being literally correct (possibly!)

Since the English army was essentially archers and men-at-arms (and that included knights to Dukes ... the wage varied but the role stayed the same) the same principals applied down the social strata. That is why the badge became so important, it symbolised the lordship/town to which the individual/group belonged without having a different livery.

Noblemen bought livery Jackets by the thousand and the Paston letters and London Chronicles show an expectation that everyone should have, but did not all succeed in having, the same colour. For the Pastons the cloth wasn't available, for the Taylors in London they were excused because they'd just had a Livery issue in a different colour.

The Household accounts of Sir John Howard show a not insignificant nobleman with several liveries of other noblemen (Warwick & Clarence as well as St George from memory) in his possession.

How consistently/effectively all of this was actually enforced /adhered to is a matter for debate. In 1461 Gregory's Chronicle described the Lancastrian army as follows "every lord men bore their lords livery, that every man might know his own fellowship by his livery, and beside all that, every man and lord bore the Prince's livery that was a bend of crimson and black with Ostrich feathers"

So we know multiple liveries were worn, the question being how far down did 'their lord' extend ... banneret, major nobleman or individual knight? It's hard to be sure, but the key is that they wore Livery, not arms, or at least that is the implication.

So for your situation .. if it was C15th ... I'd recommend them wearing a livery ... either of their immediate Lord or that of their Lord's Lord ...

Hope that helps

quote:

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Originally posted by Ginevra:
John, you've used the term "men of cote" before, as you do here. I am unfamiliar with this term. Where does it come from?

Thanks!

Gwen

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As far as I know there are very scarce sources for liveries in the 14th century, one for instance for edward III's personal group of archers, wearing a green-white gown.
Normally, I would not expect people with their own arms to wear a livery, because this simply negotiates their sense.
If nobody cannot recognize me, he cannot judge if it is worth saving my life in the battlefield and asking money for my safe return instead, there are plenty of examples for this being common practice in the 100 year war, and what happened, if somebody did not wear his coat of arms- he got butchered of caught wounded in battle.

However, there are a variety of examples for pieces of cloth or simplar colouring worn somewhere attached to armour or clothing, for example the scotish wearing a white cross of cloth, or the french doing similar.

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