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Author Topic: Livery for 14th Century Company
John McFarlin
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Member # 564

posted 07-12-2005 01:32 PM     Profile for John McFarlin     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
A group of friends and I are starting a 14th century group that is striving to reach high fidelity replication. One question we have is the use of livery among men of cote. The group is replicating a group of esquires at short halt during travel (a variety of setttings from campaign to peacetime).

What was common practice for men of cote, regarding wearing the livery of a company? I suspect that men of cote would never under any but the most compelling circumstances ever wear anything but their own arms.

Soldiery (men at arms and archers) are a completely different issue, and I suspect that they could expect to be told what to wear regarding livery.

John
aka Jehan de Pelham, esquire
aka Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus


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Gwen
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posted 07-12-2005 02:54 PM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
John, you've used the term "men of cote" before, as you do here. I am unfamiliar with this term. Where does it come from?

Thanks!

Gwen


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Fire Stryker
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posted 07-12-2005 03:02 PM     Profile for Fire Stryker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I was wondering the same thing.

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ad finem fidelis


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John McFarlin
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posted 07-12-2005 04:20 PM     Profile for John McFarlin     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ah! It is possible that I am using a non-techincal term, and I may have picked it up from any number of sources.

What I am referring to are persons of the gentry, who bear their own family arms. Persons permitted by custom, tradition, or law to bear personal arms.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus


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chef de chambre
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posted 07-12-2005 05:03 PM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Okay, I understand you now John - from the query and response on the other board, I was under the impression you were portraying mercenaries in a Free company - my bad.

I think you would wear your arms - the only historical example of an association I can think of (it was a brotherhood of arms contract) is the 'Pomme d'Or', from the 1390's, and the members wore no livery, but had a little gold apple badge they would occasionally wear.

In the 15th century, on the other hand, English armies began to require all men wear the national livery on oversees expeditions, at least under a certain rank (and by rank, I men the King and his borthers).

--------------------

Bob R.


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John McFarlin
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posted 07-12-2005 07:38 PM     Profile for John McFarlin     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The Brotherhood of Arms is exactly the model that we are portraying, the esquires brought by a Knight as part of his indenture to a yet higher lord, or a banneret, but also beholden to one another.

The next question, is this: when does the cross of St. George become frequently worn. I am of the belief that it was during Henry V's campaigns in the early 15th century in France.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus, KSCA


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Dave Key
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posted 07-20-2005 08:04 AM     Profile for Dave Key   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
John,

As already mentioned the C15th does have a fair amount on this, it's more my area than the C14th. Unfortunately I can't really give you an answer for the C14th in England, however, the title of Banneret does begin to give a hint.

From what I have always understood of heraldry the title banneret denotes someone with the right to bear their banner in battle. Essentially this is the commander of a 'battle' or 'ward' of which there would be three in a typically arrayed English army.

The banner is the only flag bearing the personal arms of a man, other flags (Standards, pennons etc.) bearing their badge(s). So logically the only person wearing their personal arms ought to be the banneret, all others are, effectively, retained by them and 'should' be wearing their livery.

How far this was actually applied is another question and pictorial representations like the Beauchamp chronicles don't really help as they are using the personal arms to identify participants rather than being literally correct (possibly!)

Since the English army was essentially archers and men-at-arms (and that included knights to Dukes ... the wage varied but the role stayed the same) the same principals applied down the social strata. That is why the badge became so important, it symbolised the lordship/town to which the individual/group belonged without having a different livery.

Noblemen bought livery Jackets by the thousand and the Paston letters and London Chronicles show an expectation that everyone should have, but did not all succeed in having, the same colour. For the Pastons the cloth wasn't available, for the Taylors in London they were excused because they'd just had a Livery issue in a different colour.

The Household accounts of Sir John Howard show a not insignificant nobleman with several liveries of other noblemen (Warwick & Clarence as well as St George from memory) in his possession.

How consistently/effectively all of this was actually enforced /adhered to is a matter for debate. In 1461 Gregory's Chronicle described the Lancastrian army as follows "every lord men bore their lords livery, that every man might know his own fellowship by his livery, and beside all that, every man and lord bore the Prince's livery that was a bend of crimson and black with Ostrich feathers"

So we know multiple liveries were worn, the question being how far down did 'their lord' extend ... banneret, major nobleman or individual knight? It's hard to be sure, but the key is that they wore Livery, not arms, or at least that is the implication.

So for your situation .. if it was C15th ... I'd recommend them wearing a livery ... either of their immediate Lord or that of their Lord's Lord ...

Hope that helps

Cheers
Dave


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miller
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posted 05-05-2006 09:55 PM     Profile for miller   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ginevra:
John, you've used the term "men of cote" before, as you do here. I am unfamiliar with this term. Where does it come from?

Thanks!

Gwen



I believe Geofferoi de Charny used the term in his writings.


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jboerner
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posted 05-10-2006 06:13 AM     Profile for jboerner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi,

As far as I know there are very scarce sources for liveries in the 14th century, one for instance for edward III's personal group of archers, wearing a green-white gown.
Normally, I would not expect people with their own arms to wear a livery, because this simply negotiates their sense.
If nobody cannot recognize me, he cannot judge if it is worth saving my life in the battlefield and asking money for my safe return instead, there are plenty of examples for this being common practice in the 100 year war, and what happened, if somebody did not wear his coat of arms- he got butchered of caught wounded in battle.

However, there are a variety of examples for pieces of cloth or simplar colouring worn somewhere attached to armour or clothing, for example the scotish wearing a white cross of cloth, or the french doing similar.

--------------------

Diu Minnezīt
Reconstruction of textiles, armour and daily life
1250,1350,1475
Nuremberg and Paris
http://www.diu-minnezit.de

IG Meisterhauw
Reconstruction of late medieval and early renaissance fencing techniques
http://www.meisterhauw.de

Nuremberg in the middle ages
http://www.nuernberg-im-mittelalter.de


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Bertus
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posted 05-10-2006 09:27 AM     Profile for Bertus     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think that livery in the 14th century was still the name for cloth meant for garments, that was handed out once a year to the people serving in, or belonging to, a household, town or perhaps some other organization. The colour of this fabric could vary per year and per status of the receiver and was not meant to be related to the coat of arms of the person or town that issued the cloth.

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Bertus Brokamp


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