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Author Topic: Ale/beer questions
Lyndsey Brown
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posted 10-19-2005 07:34 PM     Profile for Lyndsey Brown     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
As no one in Redshield currently has any ale or beer made, I'd like to find a modern equivilent for our portrayal in November. Per our sceneario, "we have taken up a position in the countryside near a small village ( current day Montflours) after skirting around Chalons."

I'm curious if anyone has any exprience with or thoughts on:
~a modern beer or ale that would be similar to one period to 1390s Brittany.
~how do folks handle serving beer while out on campaign? Do you crack bottles at home and pour into a wooden keg? stone crocks?

This will be our first portrayal out in the field for the full day without modern cheats at reasonable distance. I am very excited but a bit overwhelmed thinking through all the details. I think I've gotten food and kitchen mostly figured out. But it would be nice to let the boys have their beer.

Thank you!

Lyndsey
Redshield 1391


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Martin
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posted 10-19-2005 09:07 PM     Profile for Martin     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi,
well I am not certain about French beers but there are several German ones that haven´t changed for centuries, we had often had at events a dark "Köstritzer" or "König Ludwig Dunkel" along, as for transport at events, if you are lucky and you have a brewary at hand that is a bit old fashion you might still be able to get your beer in wooden kegs from the brewary. Otherwise we just filled the bottles into large ceramic jugs out of sight, which works also o.k., only when not serving see to it that you have a piece of linen covering the top of the jug otherwise you might endup have wasps in your beer.

Martin

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Verpa es, qui istuc leges. Non es fidenter scripto!


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Charles I
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posted 10-22-2005 08:11 PM     Profile for Charles I     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wasps in the beer Don't think I would enjoy that very much... But, whilst we are on the topic of ales and beers, are there any surviving recipes from the 14th Century for such beverages? I imagine the breweries keep their recipes secret. I am looking into making some beer and mead in the near future.

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In every life some rain must fall...


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Jeff Johnson
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posted 10-24-2005 09:14 AM     Profile for Jeff Johnson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What you are looking for is an ale - not beer. Adding hops to make it beer is later.

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Geoffrey Bourrette
Man At Arms


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Jeff Johnson
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posted 10-24-2005 09:47 AM     Profile for Jeff Johnson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What you really need is to have someone brew you a couple of carbouys of a "Small ale" - essentially a low aclohol unfiltered ale that you can put into a small keg and serve warm. It only keeps for a few days, but that's fine for ebents.

A good simulant is a belgian white ale. I personally prefer "Blue Moon" brand. You can keep the bottles in a tent and serve it by emptying the bottles into pichers.

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Geoffrey Bourrette
Man At Arms


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Lyndsey Brown
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posted 10-24-2005 07:58 PM     Profile for Lyndsey Brown     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thank you!

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Lyndsey


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Dave Key
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posted 11-23-2005 06:02 PM     Profile for Dave Key   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Jeff,

I'm not sure that Lyndsey really is looking for ale rather than beer. Since the locale is Brittany (which isn't France anymore than Wales is England)then I'm not sure when hops were added. Certainly the English ale of the C15th wasn't hopped, but there was an ongoing arguement in England between 'good English ale' and the nasty foreign (Flemish) import of beer (which was hopped). So Flanders at least had hopped beer as we (almost) know it.

Ironic really that the modern British defenders of traditional Beer should call themselves CAMRA (CAMpaign for Real Ale)and bemoan the death of 'good English ale' against nasty foreign imported Lager ... since the very beer they are defending is the nasty foreign import of the C15th! In fact evenb the complaints and language are the same ... the new stuff is too strong, it gets people drunk and acting like louts ... all quite comical really and totally irrelevant to the original question ... but just to say don't necessarily use England as a good illustration of the beer/ale on the Continent.

Cheers
Dave


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Mike
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posted 11-24-2005 04:23 AM     Profile for Mike     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wasn't beer becoming more common in England towards the end of the 15th? Hull has customs records of alot of hops coming into the country, as do other ports I believe. Any other use for large amounts of hops anybody?
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Dave Key
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posted 11-24-2005 06:05 AM     Profile for Dave Key   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Mike,

That's sort of the point. During the course of the C15th ale (unhopped) was being replaced by beer (hopped). However the original post referenced a C14th date (1390) and a non-English locale (Brittany). So whilst beer was fairly commonplace by the end of the C15th in England it wasn't common at the start of the century in England at any rate ... although I can't recall the earliest reference ... but regardless of it's prevelance in England in the later C14th (i.e. probably very low) the question is how prevelant was it in Brittany. And for that question I'm very much afraid I have no answer.

Cheers
Dave


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Mike
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posted 11-24-2005 08:40 AM     Profile for Mike     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
My mistake! Should have read the start of the post again
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John McFarlin
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posted 11-24-2005 04:41 PM     Profile for John McFarlin     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What was the libation situation on the English isles in the late 14th century, then? Unhopped ales?

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire (www.mron.org )
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus


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Dave Key
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posted 11-25-2005 11:56 AM     Profile for Dave Key   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ale is unhopped, but yes pretty much. Far better for you than water (seriously it's been boiled) ... but it'll go off in a couple of days hence the tradition of a fresh branch outside the alehouse when a fresh brew was available ... it'll wilt in a couple of days just like the ale. And thence the origin of the pub sign.

Cheers
Dave


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Ulfgar
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posted 11-28-2005 04:18 AM     Profile for Ulfgar     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have heard the branch called an "ale stake" and was supposed to be put out when ready to alert the local ale conner , as well as customers, that new ale was ready. Apparently the ale could not be sold untill the conner had checked it, taxed it and determined a fair sale price for the quality. The idea of the branch bieng used to advertise the ales freshness makes total sense! (It had just never occurred to me before.)

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James Bretlington
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posted 02-27-2008 01:14 PM     Profile for James Bretlington   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Resurrecting a dead thread here, but I've found a good Belgian beer or two that make sense to me as being something that would be found.

You need to look for Rodenbach, or Duchess De Bourgogne. Both are an interesting mix of an aged beer mixed with a younger one. The taste is a little sour afterwards, but rather pleasent.

The thinking I have is that akin to wines, where we know that wines that had gone off would have been mixed with newer better wines, 'powled' or soured beers would have been mixed with fresher, younger ones and then drunk to avoid wastage.

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Loyaulte Me Lie


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Paul Kenworthy
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posted 02-28-2008 08:05 AM     Profile for Paul Kenworthy     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by James Bretlington:
Resurrecting a dead thread here, but I've found a good Belgian beer or two that make sense to me as being something that would be found.

You need to look for Rodenbach, or Duchess De Bourgogne. Both are an interesting mix of an aged beer mixed with a younger one. The taste is a little sour afterwards, but rather pleasent.

The thinking I have is that akin to wines, where we know that wines that had gone off would have been mixed with newer better wines, 'powled' or soured beers would have been mixed with fresher, younger ones and then drunk to avoid wastage.


Hi James,

Have to agree with you that those are two nice Belgians. I brought a bottle of Rodenbach "Grand Cru" and a bottle of Duchess de Bourgogne to the Wolf Argent annual meeting last week. Delicious!!

However, I'm not sure that they represent a medieval style of beer. They are both versions of Flemish sour ales where the sour taste is a deliberate effect. Aging beer in oak barrels left over from some other use is a current rage (Captain Lawrence Brewing Co in Pleasantville, NY has an entire line of beers aged in wine barrels, port barrels, whiskey barrels, brandy barrels, etc.) but I haven't seen a reference to it being done in the middle ages.

Also, I don't recall ever seeing a reference to mixing old beer with new in commercial brewing. There would have been three kinds of breer available in Brittany in the late 14th century: home brewing for household consumption, local commercial brewing, and imported beer. Home brewers would have done whatever they felt like and left us virtually no record of what they did. The commercial brewers would have been taxed and regulated. They would have hidden any practices that didn't comply with the regulations. I think it unlikely that beer could have been stored in oak barrels for a year and then mixed with new beer the way Duchess de Bourgogne does now. They can do it now because they use sterile brewing techniques and mechanical temperature control. Without those it would have been a a low probability crap shoot that you would get anything remotely drinkable.

Unfortunately for us today it is almost impossible to say what was in medieval beer. For example, the most common beer in the 14th century was flavored with "gruit" and we don't really know what that was. It might not even be one thing, but rather a class of flavorings.

Home brewers might have tried to stretch their beer by mixing slightly off and/or old beers with new, but I'd need some evidence to give me confidence that a commercial brewer would have opened a barrel, found it a little off, and poured it into a new barrel with some new beer to salvage it. That's a lot of work to go through, it wastes the new beer (If you have 10 barrels of bad beer and 10 barrels of good beer, do you really make more money by having 20 barrels of poor beer?), and you have to be confident of getting it past experienced government revenue officers. I'm pretty confident that they couldn't have done it deliberately to achieve a particular flavor like modern Flemish sour ales do without modern brewing techniques and equipment.

Best Regards,

Paul


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James Bretlington
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posted 02-28-2008 10:08 AM     Profile for James Bretlington   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Damn, there goes my justification for a pleasant tipple during the day!

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Loyaulte Me Lie


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Paul Kenworthy
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posted 02-28-2008 02:14 PM     Profile for Paul Kenworthy     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by James Bretlington:
Damn, there goes my justification for a pleasant tipple during the day!

Aux contraire, just like we can't say for sure what the beer was like, we can't say for sure what it wasn't like. We can only rule certain things out.

In general I'd avoid bottom fermenting yeasts (lagers/pilzners) because those would have only been brewed in cold locations at cold times of year.

Avoid anything with rice in it (Bud, Miller, Japanese beers, etc) though those are generally bottom fermented anyway.

Favor things that taste good at "cellar" temperature, because you can't ice them and things that aren't too carbonated 'cause they didn't bottle condition.

Other than that, drink what you like. Any kind of grain including oats goes. Add fruit or honey if you like. Almost any spice is OK. Unfortunately for me, two of my favorite beer flavorings, chocolate and coffee, are out. Weak beer is OK. Strong beer is OK.

Go hoppy depending on what time and place you are re-enacting. Hopping starts in Germany and spreads slowly through the low countries into France. It spreads south east into Bohemia at the same time.

As the earlier thread mentions, there was a big fight in England in the 15th and 16th century between the "ale" brewers, who didn't use hops, and the "beer" brewers who did. That was an English Thing and both drinks were brewed and imported and exported in England all at the same time. All modern English ale is what in the middle ages would have been called beer because virtually all modern ale is hopped.

Sour or sweet or dry or bitter, it's all good.

Cheers!

Paul


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James Bretlington
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posted 02-29-2008 12:22 PM     Profile for James Bretlington   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I tend to go for what would have been a correct beer/ale anyway, simply because as you say, it is sometimes impossible to ice things properly.

Note sometimes... as we serve food to cast members as part of our recreation of a medieval/renaissance feast at the ren faire, we have a small fridge hidden in one of our tent to keep things fresh and we also have ice supplied to us by the organisers as we are also an official water station for the cast at the faire.

I prefer the more flavourful tipples anyway...

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Loyaulte Me Lie


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chef de chambre
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posted 02-29-2008 01:40 PM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Paul, do you do any brewing?

If so, we ought to try to experiment with making some Belgian Ales...

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Bob R.


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Friedrich
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posted 03-01-2008 05:05 PM     Profile for Friedrich   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Mmmmmm... Bier!

This is slightly off the original question but is perhaps worth adding for historical value... Germany made a decree called the "Reinheitsgebot" or German Purity Law of 1516 regarding the brewing of beer. It stipulated that only barley, hops, and water could be used in the production of beer. (Yes, you need to include yeast and its interesting that it's not mentioned...) It also stipulated what a specific quantity would cost at various times during the year. This law, however, didn't cover the additives for certain modern preservatives or preserving techniques. This law was modified recently to permit waivers for imported beer, but native beer must still follow this regulation. Not originally listed or specified in the law was the ingredient of wheat but its obviously accepted...

The catch of trying to source a true pure beer in this country brewed in the old world is its very short shelf life. Also of note is that, except for storing in cellars, beer was not chilled. So sourcing a true medieval beer in the US would be a challenge.

One of the big factors in the taste of beer, besides the blend of hops, etc., is the type and resulting flavour of the yeast added. To make small batches of beer now, we add packets of yeast. Back then, they would have simply had a vat of what they'd already produced and used that vat as a source of starter yeast.

So if you decide to make your own beer and are trying for a certain taste, you would need to look at what yeasts are available for you to use.

As to what was brewed in the UK? Probably something similar. I think its really interesting that the need for a purity law was enacted in the first place. Obviously guilds and certainly early brewers were in competition. The fact that a law was enacted is evidence that extended disputes over beer and its contents were going on at that time.

A couple of interesting links regarding period beer for what is now the UK... At least they offer sources in the article that might offer some worthwhile information...
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~pwp/tofi/medieval_english_ale.html
http://hbd.org/brewery/library/PeriodRen.html

[ 03-01-2008: Message edited by: Friedrich ]


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chef de chambre
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posted 03-02-2008 07:05 AM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Stick a jug of beer in a stream of water, and it will chill, Also ditto for placing in a tub of cold water.

Interestingly enough, we see images of this very practise in German sources - Das Mittlealteres Hausbuch has several such images.

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Bob R.


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Pieter
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posted 03-02-2008 11:55 AM     Profile for Pieter     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Lindsey,
As Chef De Chamber wrote,the best way to keep your ale cool, may be to place the jug or container in a local stream, brook etc. Of course, one has to remember that beer cold enough to shatter your teeth, is a modern concept (probably American), and in my opinnion, probably done to disguise lack of flavour and poorly made beer. Ale on the other hand was never meant to be served very cold (cool, yes maybe, but not ice cold!). As far as modern supplements for medieval ales are concerned - thats a tough one I would listen to Martin. Many modern Belgian white ales are hopped (incorrect for 14th C.), but if your in a bind for time I don't see why not. I know Leffe, Hoegaarden and more expensive Chimay are easily enough available(I know -historically incorrect for your period). Some of the other members, probably have already or can answer any questions as to period recipies, better than I could. Ales were probably made very much like someone baking a cake - Yes there is a general recipy, but the individual baker may add a little here, and take a little there, according to personal taste and judgement. The most commonly consumed ales would probably have been made on a smaller individual, family and local level, more like todays individual homebrewers. Ale would also have been produced on a "larger" scale in urban centers or towns (probably only to be consumed in that local area) even this would probably be more like a small microbrewery today. Unlike wine, Ale would have been made to be consumed upon production - of course there was no refrigeration to store or preserve it. Here is a picture from Gaston Phebus. Note the jugs in the stream on the lower left side of the picture.
Pieter

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Bertus
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posted 03-02-2008 12:03 PM     Profile for Bertus     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote

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Bertus Brokamp


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Paul Kenworthy
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posted 03-02-2008 06:23 PM     Profile for Paul Kenworthy     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by chef de chambre:
Paul, do you do any brewing?

If so, we ought to try to experiment with making some Belgian Ales...


Bob,

We don't have to experiment. I've got a case of 22 oz Belgian triples I brewed last year sitting in my basement. I'll give you a couple. Watch out though, these are something like 12% ABV!

Best Regards,

Paul


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Paul Kenworthy
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posted 03-02-2008 06:35 PM     Profile for Paul Kenworthy     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Friedrich:
Mmmmmm... Bier!


One of the big factors in the taste of beer, besides the blend of hops, etc., is the type and resulting flavour of the yeast added. To make small batches of beer now, we add packets of yeast. Back then, they would have simply had a vat of what they'd already produced and used that vat as a source of starter yeast.

So if you decide to make your own beer and are trying for a certain taste, you would need to look at what yeasts are available for you to use.


Very true, yeast is very important in determining the flavor. For example, a lot of what gives Flemish sour ales their sour flavor is the yeast they use. The yeast also determines the alchohol content, which affects the taste, and the alchohol tolerance of the yeast determines how much of the fermentables are left, which determines the sweetness or dryness of the beer relative to the amount of malt used.

However, getting Belgian yeasts is not as hard as one might think. Yeast stays alive in unpasteurized, bottle-conditioned beer for about six months. A lot of the best imported (meaning into the US) Belgians are unpasteurized, bottle-conditioned, so you can recover yeast from them, similar to the way medieval brewers did.

Best Regards,

Paul


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