after waiting some month for the log-in, i have a very urgent question now. But first, i want to introduce myselve. I`m from germany (therefore the many mistakes), doing the "living history stuff" with my group "Anno 1476" and living in Luebeck. I have two Horses, a old Welsh Pony and a young Barb (Berber)... I doing some research on medieval horse equipment (many thanks to Peter Lyon for some very good english book-links, by the way!!!) and that is the point, where i come at last back to my question:
Saddles from 1300 to 1500... OK so far... but whats about the padding under the saddle.. Saddlepads, saddle blanket, or padded saddle-pillions... I just looked over about 200 pictures, today.. i found no evidence for pads, nor Blankets. I looked over some original saddles, like the Henry-Saddle, the Majorca-Saddle, the rich carved civilian saddles, etc. No padding, like on oriental saddles from the last century... Maybe, there were pillions, butnow they are lost? There are some later war-, or tournament-saddles from the early 16th century, which might be paddet inside, like spanish saddles.... is there someone out there, who has a answer to this all?

Pillions are another type of pad that usually a lady would sit on behind the primary rider.

I've seen a lot of fabric covers for saddles, leather covers for saddles, somethings that look like they may be saddle pads, etc...

Speculative comment: Some pads may have been close cut similar to todays Dressage or Australian sheepskin pads.

I will look through a few of the account books and see if they specifically mention saddle pads. If I find something definitive, I'll let you know.

--------------------

Also, there is a medieval poem mentioned in "The ties that bound" that mentions people sharing a "horse blanket" for warmth. I can't remember the name of it (the poem) unfortunately though.

I've seen a lot of "over", but not a lot of "under" that can clearly be described as such. matter of fact, I'm looking at a lady riding side saddle right now and the cloth is over. I've seen other examples of over. I'm still looking.

In the case of some styles of caparisons, it looks like the caparison acts as a saddle cloth.

Personally, I want my horse to be as comfortable as possible. So I would not use a saddle without one, even if I had it cut to shape of the saddle.

Mike, does the Propertees of Medcyn for hors say anything about it under training? I can't remember off the top of my head and the document is at home.

--------------------

PMH doesn't say much in the way of tack as far as I can recall. The best place to look would be inventories etc, but aside from the above entries I haven't found anything else yet.

Thats the problem with using a dictionary. I thought, "pillon" is the word for the pillows, wich are attached (fixed)under saddles (non western-saddles).

I try to link some pictures from something, which could be some sort of saddle-pads, or blankets. But they are from the 13th century! On the pictures, you can see some cloth OVER saddles, too, mentioned in you last posting.
Saddle1
Saddle2
And now, something really interesting:
Saddle3
Saddle4
Saddle5
Saddle6

But now, back to the 15th century. These are some saddles (quick and dirty collection)as example for my question:
St george in stockholm/Luebeck
another St George in Luebeck
And here from some very various sources:
[URL=http://fotoalbum.web.de/gast/herrwaldfee/saddles/printImage?
imageId=72342243&imageType=image]various1[/URL]
various2
various3
various4
etc.

At the end of the 15th century, there are these well known heavy saddles approaching (example from 16th cent.), which are to see in many museums (often combined with much older plate armour for men):
Saddle with pillows
This type of saddles has already the fix attached saddle-pillows, like they are in use, till today. Here is a normal modern "spanisch saddle" from Portugal (we use a similar model for dressage):
Portuguesa

If we think about the starting question, this could probably the answer. But this is only speculation.
If we look at this type of saddletree, here,there could be probably and easyliy pillows attached (look at the holes):
Saddletree1
But this one has not such holes:
Saddletree2
Maybe, the pillows are fastened with nails?

An other point: If there are Pillows beneath the saddles, wouldn't they be a little bit higher over the back of the horse? Here some modern Pictures as example (extreme pictures, because the saddles are un-used and therefore not worn-in.)
modern1
modern2

And what is with the HenryV Saddle, and the Majorca-Saddle (By the way, both look some kind of oldfashioned to me!?)
Henry Saddle
Majorca Saddle
Here is no evidence for those pillows. They look like those very old and typical early saddles, they use in the oriental world, till today. Those saddles, with two straight bars on both side of the horse and a seat on it, i dont know the name in english. These Saddles usually are used with a saddle-pad... The other saddletrees above looks to mee, like a more modern evolution-step from this ones? Here we are at the beginning of the question. So please help!

Best regards,
Tobias

the use of a common saddle-blanket, you could use for covering yourselve at night, too, would looks like this:
Saddleblanket
saddleblanket2

A friend of mine tried this for medieval riding (the modificated saddle has a thin padding, too):
saddleblanket in use

Maybe, it would work under an rectangular saddle? I'm very ambivalent about this.

I had an BHS instructor tell me when I was first starting out in Pony Club that the use of "numnahs" had ruined the ability of the modern horseman to properly fit their saddles. He said that a properly fitted saddle didn't require a pad underneath.

I've always used one, but I think the assumption that they were always in use historically might be just that, an assumption. It certainly didn't hold true for all equestrian usage during the last three centuries.

--------------------

thank you for your answer!
I'm not quite familiar with non-european saddles, so i`m not sure, about the saddles, you're mentioned.
If we look at saddles from europe, through 16. cent. till now (from pluvinel, over Guérinière, to 19. cent. war-saddles), they have mostly alwways fix attached saddle-pillows beneath the saddletree. Some of them are often ridden without a additional saddlecloth between the pillows and the horse-back. If we took traditional spanisch working-saddles as an example, the pillows are from linon at the horse-side, even today. Traditional riders prefer riding them, without a saddlecloth beneath, because the linon of the pillows prevents the saddle from gliding over the back of the horse. Additional the sweat from the horse goes into the pillows and help them, to form themselves after the form of the horse-back, more quickly (new saddles must be worn in for over months).
My knowledge on western-saddles is not very good. Nowerdays, they have this big skirts, with sheepsskin sewn beneath them. Sheepskin is a very good padding, for it selve.
But i think , i get the point: Good saddlemakers make the saddletree very skillfull after the horses back. Compared to the modern way of using ready made standard-saddletrees in some few different sizes, this skillfull made ones need much less padding.
An other point: Good horses were very valuables things. But i guess, that we modern riders are much more aware of hurting our horses, than the people in the past were, when hores are an all-days transporting device.
I yust read a book about european cavalery-officers ofthe last cent. which had more expensive saddles, than the normal soldier, but only made for short sputs and skillfull riding, not for riding long distances for some days. I's described, that they often dismount and go by foot beside their horses.
I think, we probably compare saddles for different purposes, if we look at the medieval saddles, which makes things not more easy.

Trunk saddle
Prunksattel or Princely saddle
Jousting saddle (differed depending on geographic location)
Hunting Saddle
There's even a mention of a double saddle in the History of the Saddlers Guild. What this is exactly, I have no idea.

I was reading something the other day and wish I'd remembered this thread when it occurred as saddle cloth was mentioned.

Tobias, if you know of any German saddlers guild documents, it may help you. The French documents tell us what is acceptable and unacceptable for structural elements of a saddle; type of leather and cloth.

--------------------

quote:

---

[B]Upps, sorry!

I try to link some pictures from something, which could be some sort of saddle-pads, or blankets. But they are from the 13th century! On the pictures, you can see some cloth OVER saddles, too, mentioned in you last posting.
Saddle1

---

This one looks like a leather or cloth saddle cover.

quote:

---

Saddle2

---

quote:

---

And now, something really interesting:
Saddle3
Saddle4
Saddle5
Saddle6

---

These look like they could be covers to protect the saddle from the rider's armour and a pad beneath to protect the saddle from either the horse's sweat or the horse's back from the saddle. It's hard to say.

quote:

---

But now, back to the 15th century. These are some saddles (quick and dirty collection)as example for my question:
St george in stockholm/Luebeck

---

Looks like this one could be raised up by padding on the bars of the tree. There is no discernible cloth.

quote:

---

another St George in Luebeck

---

Can't see this one clearly.

quote:

---

And here from some very various sources:
various1
various2
various3
various4
etc.

---

2 looks like no cloth with an integral pad/skirt.

3 Something similar: part of the saddle structure.

4 Looks like a leather cover over a tree with no pad.

quote:

---

At the end of the 15th century, there are these well known heavy saddles approaching (example from 16th cent.), which are to see in many museums (often combined with much older plate armour for men):
Saddle with pillows
This type of saddles has already the fix attached saddle-pillows, like they are in use, till today. Here is a normal modern "spanisch saddle" from Portugal (we use a similar model for dressage):
Portuguesa

---

I would have to see the conservation records before making a conclusion. Many times a saddle has been repaired or new items attached over the saddle's working life. The 16th war saddle and the Portuguesa have a different tree structure. There are similarities above the tree. It has more in common with the late 16th early 17th saddles used by Pluvinel, Cavendish, and Guérinière (18th cent).

One has to be careful about using later saddles as evidence for what occurred in earlier centuries.

quote:

---

If we think about the starting question, this could probably the answer. But this is only speculation.
If we look at this type of saddletree, here,there could be probably and easyliy pillows attached (look at the holes):
Saddletree1
But this one has not such holes:
Saddletree2
Maybe, the pillows are fastened with nails?

---

The holes on the saddle could be ties for decorative leather skirts; they could be used to tie on a saddle cloth; they could be used to attach barding like the knotted leather in the Durer image of "The Knight, Death, and the Devil".

quote:

---

An other point: If there are Pillows beneath the saddles, wouldn't they be a little bit higher over the back of the horse? Here some modern Pictures as example (extreme pictures, because the saddles are un-used and therefore not worn-in.)
modern1
modern2

---

I think your previous image of St. George shows a slight elevation of the saddle off the horse's back which might indicate some sort of padding. Without being able to get close enough to the statue to look under, to see if the artist actually sculpted that detail, it's hard to say.

quote:

---

And what is with the HenryV Saddle, and the Majorca-Saddle (By the way, both look some kind of oldfashioned to me!?)
Henry Saddle
Majorca Saddle

Here is no evidence for those pillows. They look like those very old and typical early saddles, they use in the oriental world, till today. Those saddles, with two straight bars on both side of the horse and a seat on it, i dont know the name in english. These Saddles usually are used with a saddle-pad... The other saddletrees above looks to mee, like a more modern evolution-step from this ones? Here we are at the beginning of the question. So please help!

---

The "bars" on the saddles are not exactly straight. They are actually shaped like the bars on the prunksattels. They are most likely early 15th century. Probably no later than the 1430s. The Henry V saddle is missing the lower portion of the bars on the back giving it a square look.

I think to work out the issue, we need to stick to the style of saddle you're looking at in the time period. To search across centuries for similar examples doesn't really address the time period you're looking at. If your doing a survey of saddles through the century, then I'd look at one century at a time.

--------------------

Thank you for you detailed answer.
I apologize about my bad english.
I think i wrote to much and to unclear.
Everything you pointed out in your answer is exactly what i think, too.
I was trying to eplain my "train of thoughts", with this pictures. Pro and contra. The
The essence of all my questions:
There are some hints for fixed pillows in the 15.th century, but no proof..... except for this well known heavy war- and jousting saddles from the end of the cent., we all know from the museums (there are too many saddles of that kind with pillows, so i dont't think they are a later addition). There are no hints for saddlepads, like modern westernpads in the 15.th cent. There are several pictures and sculptures, which looks like the raw saddletree lies on the horseback, with no padding at all.
But as a modern rider and someone, who is interested in all kinds of saddles , i nearly can't belive that.
There is a discussion around here in germany, with some people on one side (the well known "Baroque-rider" Bent Branderup, for instance (and me ;-) ))... who say, there WAS the high art of riding in the middle-ages bevore Pluvinel, vs. others, who say, they were all brutes and barbarians, and no higher horsemanship after the greeks.... But with a wooden saddletree on a bare horse back, i have to think again about my opinion.
Last point: You are exactly right, not to mix up differend centuries, without further look. You can't take one thing wich looks like a earlier one, and take it as a proof. But i believe in finding out tendencies and evolution-steps, which could help to fill out holes in our knowledge, if we have no surviving original findings.
As long as we have no german civilian, or light army saddle (maybe the one saddle in Wien?), i can see no other way? (would be glad, if i'm wrong)

Best regards

The fresco monument to Niccolo de Tolentino, by Andrea de Castagno, located in the Duomo in Florence,dated 1456 seems to pretty clearly depict a saddle pad under a saddle, the pad being covered with rich cloth. You can see where the edge of the saddle sits over the pad.

--------------------

quote:

---

... a yerd and di. of blak [cloth] to Thomas Seynclow, for a sadyll cloth for my Lord. iiij.s.

---

--------------------

--------------------

Just causing trouble, ignore me

--------------------

The foot mantle is what the Wife of Bath is seen wearing in the Ellesmere Canterbury Tales. Which actually cover her feet, over which are strapped her spurs.

If a saddle were covered with a fabric, it would be listed and stated explicitly. So, saddle blanket.

trouble maker.

--------------------