The Royal Book of Jousting, Horsemanship, and Knightly Combat, Dom Duarte's 15th century Bem Cavalgar.

from the Chivalry Bookshop website last week, I asked for air freight, and it arrived today (in the Netherlands). So I am very pleased about the fast delivery time.

Just going to go and sit down now and read it.

Cheers
Joram

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Jenn

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The book.
The book itself is a nice size in hardback about 150 pages. I was not overly happy with the quality of the binding, and I think I will need to get another copy as my working copy looks like it will not hold up to the rigours of being read while on horse trying stuff out.

The Translation.
Not knowing any Portuguese, or having a copy of the original I am totaly reliant on the translator having done a good job.
I like that the translator has made a lot of foot notes, explaing why he has translated certain words the way he has.
The Translator has also added some of his own interpretations in the footnotes, some of which may be of help. Here however I prefer to research these things myself ratehr than trust to somebody elses interpretation.

The Text.
Dom Duarte certainly seams to know his stuff, and sounds remarkably like some of my past classical dressage and eventing teachers. He is also very aware of human nature and the way people learn.

A quote from the introductions by Duarte, pg 5. "Those who want to learn the right way should start reading small sections, slowly and with great concentration, going back a couple of times to what they have already read to better learn it. If they read for long periods and very fast as if it was a storybook, they will loose the pleasure and become bored, because their level of understanding and recollection will not be as great; as a general rule this is the way to read a book of science or instruction".

The book covers both the technical aspect of how to ride and also pyschological aspects. Of the two the pyscholgical aspects are certainly covered the most fully, sometimes I felt the physical aspects could have done with a bit more description, or certainly illustrations. This unfortunately is always the case of how-to manuals. Even so I found re-reading and trying out what Duarte is saying generally gives you a good idea.

A very interesting part right at the beggining of the book, is where Duarte describes different ridding styles for different saddles, this I found to be an invaluable little insight into what many of us had probably already guessed would be the case. Again here pictures of the saddles that he is describing would have been great, but with some of his descriptions and a bit of searching manuscript illustrations, I think it should be possible to get an idea of what riding type he is suggesting for what saddles.

Conclussion.
I would consider this to be essential reading for anyone interested in Medieval Horsemanship. For myself I was very pleased that it seamed to show that I was on the right track with what I personally have been trying to achieve, but at the same time has given me a lot of new insight and ideas to try which should keep me occupied for quite few years to come.

Cheers
Joram

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Rather than spend money on a second shoddy copy, why not simply photocopy the pages you'll be using on horseback? Jeff makes photocopies of all his expensive armour books (like l'art del Armatura, for example) so he can refer to it out in his shop without fear of ruining the very expensive original. I tend to do the same thing with cookbooks, so I don't have to worry about spilling something into a reference book.

Just a thought. I don't ride, so I have no opinion on Duarte.

The Translator is a native speaker and went to a very prestigious military college in Portugal which taught riding and swordsmanship as part of the ciriculum, and has helped with other WMA documents in portuguese. I have a copy of Piel's book and have read a French Treatise on the topic, it's listed in the bibliography.

From my own struggles with translation, I think that the Translator is pretty close to the mark. HOwever, I think there is either a translation error or confusion in the saddle section. I don't know if it's a translation issue, or something that Duarte may have mixed up, but it made me stop and go "HUH?".

Agree about the binding, very poor quality. And the paper stock used in the printing leaves much to be desired. The Gold leaf on the actual book adds nothing to the book. My binding is already pulled apart toward the back of the book.

Though I like the book two of the biggest cons about it are:

1) The original manuscript is not represented visually.

2) The Piel version isn't in there for scholars to compare.

I didn't find the footnotes as helpful and not as proper as I felt they should have been with page numbers leading back to the proper book and page, especially if the original text isn't included.

Content: 4.5 Fusils
Binding: 1 Fusil
Presentation: 3 Fusils. I found the layout and type face used a little visually cumbersome.

Jenn

Duarte has faith in you. He says anyone can become a good horseman[woman]. His key point is that the horse should be matched to the skill of the rider. As you progress, you should have a horse that is more fiesty (paraphrase).

And as I've been saying for years, and he said it before me, the tool must match the task. (this is more a note to folks who say, well I can do that in an english, western or other saddle. Well maybe someone can, but it doesn't mean they should. )

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If I can fall off of Bella, who was possibly the most placid animal on the face of the planet, I will definately fall off of anything.

Nope, I'm staying on the ground. I love the beasties to bits and they enrich my life immeasurably,especially when I have both feet on terra firma.

If I don't ride, Jeff has a 24/7 pit crew. Besides, I can hug them better from the ground.

Truth be told I intend to scan it to a doc file, so that I can organise sections for myself.

Hi Jenn / Bob

quote:

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From my own struggles with translation, I think that the Translator is pretty close to the mark. HOwever, I think there is either a translation error or confusion in the saddle section. I don't know if it's a translation issue, or something that Duarte may have mixed up, but it made me stop and go "HUH?".

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Can you post the relevant sentance / paragraph? There are a few things in the saddle section that I had to re-read a few times, so I would be interested if it is the same thing.

I particularily agree with..
1) The original manuscript is not represented visually.

2) The Piel version isn't in there for scholars to compare

But having waited for this translation so long I was trying to be positive

Cheers
Joram

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The descrepency that I found was on page 22 and page 31. Basically leg positions for the Bravante (Brabant) saddle. On page 22 the Bravante is described as having the "leg extended". On Page 31, in the second paragraph, there is a contradiction saying that the rider should have the legs "flexed" which is more in line with Gineta type of saddle.

I fully understand about being happy there is finally a full translation of the work. But like you, there are a few things that I would rather try out for myself instead of relying on someone else.

I am looking at the two passages in question in Piel's book to see if I can make the proper sense of it. I will also post the passages in the Portuguese so that folks can take a look at it.

Jenn

[ 02-06-2006: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ]

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Right, yes the passage on pg 31 it would be nice to know if this is the translator adding "- like Bravante saddles -", or if Duarte made a mistake and should have mentioned the name of a different type of saddle. Or possibly Duarte is refering to a different type of Bravante saddle, as he mentions in the next paragraph, also on pg 31 "with Bravante'saddles, it is necessary to use various ways of riding in accordance with their various models;..."

Another point I found interesting on Pg 33, where Duarte mentions he invented a new stirrup "I ordered the stirrups with an appropriate casing around them".

What is your oppinion in regards to this. Mine is that he is refereing to Steel stirrups with armoured side plates. The translator however suggests, in his footnote, some sort of wood and leather construction.

Cheers
Joram

[ 02-06-2006: Message edited by: Joram van Essen ]

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I also got the impression that Duarte was speaking of Iron/steel stirrups that encased the sides of the foot, not unlike some of the French and Italian designs. I did not get the impression that they were wood and leather.

I will re-read that paragraph this evening to make sure I'm not missing anything.

Could you give me the chapter number paragraph, and line? I actually have the Piel version with me at work today and can probably take a look at it during lunch.

Jenn

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Bob and I must have had a major mind-link®. But I will reinvestigate page 33 and we'll take a look at the original.

Jenn

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quote:

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Originally posted by Joram van Essen:
[B]Hi Jenn

Right, yes the passage on pg 31 it would be nice to know if this is the translator adding "- like Bravante saddles -", or if Duarte made a mistake and should have mentioned the name of a different type of saddle. Or possibly Duarte is refering to a different type of Bravante saddle, as he mentions in the next paragraph, also on pg 31 "with Bravante'saddles, it is necessary to use various ways of riding in accordance with their various models;..."

Another point I found interesting on Pg 33, where Duarte mentions he invented a new stirrup "I ordered the stirrups with an appropriate casing around them".

What is your oppinion in regards to this. Mine is that he is refereing to Steel stirrups with armoured side plates. The translator however suggests, in his footnote, some sort of wood and leather construction.

Cheers
Joram

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I think they had to embellish on the text to have it make sense to modern riders. Also, the book does not break the text up into the numbered lines that Piel had in place for reference.

The paragraph I'm thinking of mentions gyneta (gineta) not Bravante (brabant). So, I think there may be a translation error. It's not glaring, but just minorly confusing. I've been scruitinizing the text for the last two hours and am giving my eyes a rest.

I am also seeing if there's any hint to let us know if it is metal or leather covered wood.

quote:

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I invented a new model of the stirrups (for Bravante saddles and all the others): I ordered the stirrups with an appropriate casing around them.

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Here's the Piel text for Duarte on the stirrups.

E eu achei hũa nova maneira de mandar fazer strebeiras cubertas, gynetas e pera todas outras sellas. E som, a meu juizo, por que tenho dellas grande practica, muyto proveitosas pera guardar dos pees, e fazem cavalgar forte; e ao cayr as leixarám mais ligeiramente, e trazem outras vantagées que podem em ellas bem achar quem as husar de trazer. Piel, Capitullo XVI, pg. 31

The emphasis is mine, but it says Ginetas and other types of saddles. The second sentence talks about protecting the feet "guardar dos pees (pés)".

If you try to run this through a machine translation like BabelFish, you will get some hits and misses, and unless you have a basic understanding of the language, it's a bear to translate. Even folks who are native speakers found it almost impossible to do. They could identify that some of the words were old, but didn't know what they meant.

[ 02-08-2006: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ]

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I just smiled imagining Dom Duarte looking at his watch.

No offense to translator intended... couldn't do as good myself !

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So can Jeff, also by a horse that rears a lot, as proven multiple times in the jousting at Taupo. I feel better now, at least he's in good company!!

These are considered horses that act out of "malice". Duarte offers advice for all.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ginevra:
"I can be thrown off on either side by a skittish horse who turns fast and unexpectedly to one of its sides,clockwise or counter-clockwise"

So can Jeff, also by a horse that rears a lot, as proven multiple times in the jousting at Taupo. I feel better now, at least he's in good company!!

Gwen

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Gwen, I have been tossed by more horses than I care to remember. I always tell my students two things are certain - they are going to get bucked off (someday) and they are going to get stepped on (more commonly).

I haven't received my book yet, but have already decided to make a working copy. Thanks for the head's up!

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Break a Lance,

quote:

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Originally posted by Lloyd:
...I always tell my students two things are certain - they are going to get bucked off (someday) and they are going to get stepped on (more commonly).

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More likely to happen on a strange horse I think. If Phantom ever bucks me off, I'll be astounded. She bucked Bob off when she was two years old and that was only because she skidded on the ice and lost her balance. Scared her a little so she did a crow hop and then a full spin, head between the legs buck. Tossed Bob like a bean bag.

I did a pseudo flying dismount from Normandie when he was two as well. Fortunately, I knew I was coming off and reacted in time to land on my feet. So it looked like I did it intentionally.

Getting stepped on, yep, happens, but humans should learn to keep their feet out of the way especially us folks who have ponies with size 4 + feet.

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Anyway, didn't mean to derail the thread.

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