I was wondering if anyone had any sources or some ideas on this.

How were chamfrons attached? I have seen modern examples with leather loops that pass through the bridle but I was wondering about the period methods. I'm also wondering how it was done when a caparison was over the bridle and the chamfron was placed on top of the caparison.

Also, what type of padding would have been used under them? I have seen stechsacks padded with horse hair, flax seeds, etc. but I have never seen anything about the chamfron padding.

Any help would be most appreciated.

I would be very wary of any extant pieces where the attachments or linings are concerned. Most museum pieces have replaced leathers and even if they look old, there's a strong chance they were replaced in the Victorian period.

Unfortunately, few contemporary illo's show this attachment, as it's not really visible when they're on the horse.

The real questions are (as usual): what period, style, will a crinet be used with it?

You almost have to look at the individual piece, its extant strapping (if any), rivet holes, etc. to know how it MIGHT have been done. And then you still don't necessarily have an real concrete answers.

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Cheers,

Jeffrey

I haven't had a chance to view ANY extant pieces up close, only some items put together for modern jousters. While many of them were very nice looking work, no-one could give me any ideas on how accurate the attachment methods were. I don't have any access to any kind of extant pieces from the 15th century. The inspirations for the piece stem all the way from Mannesse Codex plates to the illustrations from King Rene's Tournament Book.

I will be using it with a crinet eventually, it's just not clear whether it will be done in time for the first time I want to use the chamfron.

We'll keep looking.

Let's say 1450-1500 for the time frame. Does that help?

Hi Brenna,

well I did some looking. It’s a start and may help out with the chanfron issue (don’t worry about the spelling of the word, I have found several different ones like shaffron).

I have included several images below and my thoughts regarding most of them.

quote:

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How were chanfrons attached? I have seen modern examples with leather loops that pass through the bridle but I was wondering about the period methods.

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I think one period method is that you have two separate items. One the bridle and the second the chanfron. I think that a full chanfron would have it’s own leathers and strap on separately and would be strapped on over the caparison. I personally think, though I have no proof that this is what the medieval folks thought, that it would be a pain in the backside to try to buckle a chanfron through a caparison unless you have holes in the caparison that allow the cheek straps and the nose band to slip through and then buckle it and then tie the closure for the caparison. In the first Warwick image (sketch) c. 1485, this appears to be how it is done.

It seems to me that if the artist’s sketch can be trusted, that the chanfron is actually attached beneath the caparison somehow.

The 13th century image below shows bridles over the caparison (no chanfron though) where as 15th century
"sketches" show the bridle being underneath the caparison. Some with chanfrons some without.

For something like a demi-chanfron, just the main faceplate, I believe this was either buckled to a bridle like the picture from a 15th century Franco-Burgundian tapestry c.1477 below:

or it would be an integral part of the bridle as in this French image from a 15th century depicting the a tournament at St. Anglevert in 1390.

quote:

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What type of padding would have been used under them? I have seen stechsacks padded with horsehair, flax seeds, etc. but I have never seen anything about the chanfron padding.

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If you look closely at this example of a German chanfron c. 1480. Over the horse’s eye you can see something that looks very similar to a man’s linen helmet liner. Now this could be a modern reconstruction or it could be based on the actual liner for the chanfron. I don’t have enough data to be able to ascertain exactly what it is.

There also seems to be some type of fur lining around the edges of the chanfron and the horse’s peytral (breast defense). Could be rabbit or fox or some other contemporary critter.

The images I have included are regular war chanfrons ranging from 1450 to 1532-36. I suspect that you could use some of these in tournament.

Here is another 15th century Franco Burgundian tapestry depicting Hercules initiating the Olympic games. You can see a horse with a demi-chanfron, a horse with just a regular bridle, and a caparisoned horse with a chanfron that could either be painted like the cloth or cloth covered (this is tournament after all).

Or you could have one that is painted like this Italian example.

quote:

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Let's say 1450-1500 for the time frame. Does that help?

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Yes it does. Not only do you have the examples above and listed in the previous message, but here are a few more that you can chose from except the last. I just threw it in as an example of strap placement. It dates to around 1532-6.

Italian: 1450-60 by Pier Innocenzo da Faerno

German: Late 15th century

This is out of the 1450-1500 timeframe. This is the one that dates to around 1532.

I would like to point out as Hauptmann indicated above, you need to see these things "in the metal" if you can. While the photos of extant examples is great to look at for form, there are a lot of visual details that are missing like where the straps were rivited to the chanfron; the actual padding that was used; How big the horse mannequins actually are, largely in part because there are a few of these chanfrons that look like they are too large for the plastic horses they are displayed on.

I hope this helps. If I can find more information, I will post it.

Jenn

image sources:
ARMI E ARMATURE
ARMS & ARMOUR OF THE MEDIEVAL KNIGHT

[This message has been edited by Fire Stryker (edited 02-01-2001).]

There are some incredibly beautiful pieces of work out there. Sorry to say the one I'm having made won't be quite so elaborate but there's always the future!

I've always thought that a chamfron would need a lining and I quite agree that does look much like a linen liner of some type. I do know that under the peytral a padded linen stechsack was usually worn to prevent rubbing and that these were often fill with horse hair or flax seed padding.

Good observation about the points in the tapestry! You're right, that's exactly what it looks like. In the caparisons I have made so far, the best working method of closing them is points under the jaw and down the front, so a point on the crest would seem to be an attachment for another reason. Arming doublets frequently had points to secure items of armor, why wouldn't a caparison? Especially one made specifically for a tournament?

Hauptmann pointed out earlier that using the padding and the straps from extant pieces currently found in museums must be approached with care as the placement may not be correct, which is why he suggested seeing them in person if you can.

Well the cool thing is, you can always dress your chanfron up by having it painted or cloth covered. Men in the military were known to paint the occasional sallet with heraldry or whatever they fancied. Also would act as a protective coat to keep from having to polish it frequently.

Will you all be using belled collars as seen in some contemporary drawings and paintings, or going without?

Jenn

I pulled these images from this book. The first two are from a mid-15th Century illumination from the French manuscript Le Petit Jehan de Saintré. Shows clearly that the chanfron has straps and that it goes over the caparison.

The next image shows a point at the temple of the chanfron. This image is a detail from the dukes of Brittany and Bourbon fighting with swords on horseback from René d'Anjou's treatise. (Bibliothèque Nationale MS 2693 ff.32v-33)

More food for thought.

Waah, I was really getting excited about this and the price was great--free! Guess I'll have to look into paying for one eventually. Any suggestions?

I won't be using a belled collar, but I have bells up the crest of my caparison and on all the bottom of the dags.

Things went great. Maybe I'll have a chamfron next year.

I would suppose that c.14th is very much the transient period of covering quilt or mail defence with caparison and hood, and the use of pieces of crafted plate defense.

Taken from period design the chanfron was strapped independently from the bridle, in two places. Three inches above the underside of the chin (where the caveson noseband would normally sit & around the throut attatched to the squared off tabs of the poll plate (the first lame hinged to the chaffron.)
As a horseman I was at first concerned at so restrictive a position for a throut latch, particularly with a high carriaged, over arched Andalusian type breed. But the weight of the combined chaffron & crinnet cancelled out the tension and it could be throut latched with the standard three finger spacing of a bridle. The crinnet was strapped with a "Y" strap decending from each side buckled on the near, 10 or 12" down the neck from the throut.
This overlapping of positions of the bridle and chaffron straps may explain the existence of arming points on period illus.
It would be tidy and convenient to loop bridal and chaffron straps together with a simple arming point and may well have solved the following tendency, and explain why it is not visibly obvious in the illustrations.

This particular stallion has a head the size of a mack truck and a very thick and wobbly crest arche, which is why full length lames were used. Initially we had problems preventing the whole setup sliding forward and blocking the horses vision. We remedied the problem by adding a strap on each of the last lames closest to the pommel 4" below the central maneline attatched to D rings on the saddle. This did not impede the horses head movement vertically nor laterally. Though I imagine he would have problems grazing in it. In hind sight the arming points on the noseband and cheek strap /chin strap intersection may well have sufficed. Also be prepared to eject one or more of the tail end lames on your final fitting if they are too close to the pommel and saddle cloth.

As to the question of hood caparisons, the change in fashion and style of the jousting tilts may be a factor.
Earlier forms of joust and the melee or behourd did not use a tilt barrier to separate oncoming steeds and the
slightly scary meathod of blindfolding the horse with closed hood caparisons was used to prevent the horses shying away or into the oncoming horse. Literally running blind.

As tilt barriers and counter lists evolved along with the prevalence and preference of plate armours the hood caparisons fell out of favor and neccessity. That does not mean that they have not made comebacks throughout the centuries. Remember Jousting has always been a nostalgic anachronistic sport from its very beginings and just like the anachronistic garments of the British legal system or our old fashioned wedding attire, jousting traditions have been recycled and reintegrated to the tournaments throughout its sometimes intermiten past, often forgetting or needless of its original purpose.
As to the three in one use of hood caparison, chaffron and bridle, any layered combination would work with or without arming points as the only possible exiting interference would be the reins from the bit and clearly they pose no complication.

Chaffron liners, if used were usually rivetted to the chaffron.
The rivetted "decoration" on period illus. though seemingly a design is largely the functional riviting of straps and liner with the ocassional jobless rivet to complete the design.

Though horse hair and straw have a well known history as generic "stuffers" throughout the ages in everything from furniture and saddles to wigs and cod pieces the extensive use of felting is often overlooked. Felt is one of the earliest fabrics ever developed. The simple wet pounding of soft animal fibers into a solid, durable mat predates the developement of weaving and the loom.

Unfortunately the animal fibers used to make felt, sheeps wool, cow fur, camel, rabbit, fox are also the tastiest and most digestible preference of the worlds diverse species of weavil, louse,ked, bol,and clothes moths.
Old felts simply do not survive the decades let alone the centuries.
Horse hair with its resilient proteins and coarse consistency and long dead straw that becomes innert cellulose without nutritional value on the other hand can suvive and do. Examples from ancient Egypt and bronze age cultures to name a few.

As most horse people will tell you, horse hair has an irritating and insidious ability to needle its way through flesh, horse or human and cannot be used without a surface covering of, you quessed it, felt,either animal or cotton. This felt layer whether dense or thinly spread prevents the underlying horse hair or straw from angling out and escaping.
If you have ever sat on a damaged victorian armchair, or looked at the stuffing of a saddle you will see this layer in action. As someone else in this forum postulated , many of the museum piece chaffrons were likely "upholstered" in the early victorian era. An era that took furniture stuffing to an obscene excess.
And as museum pieces would never touch flesh again What more obvious choice was there than the ubiquitous upholstery hair.

Comparing chaffron liners to human helmet liners ( of which several of the horse hair and straw variety have survived) should be very cautiously undertaken.

Despite my previous assertion on the prefference of felt and all its benefits in chaffron liners of yore, our pious little humans were quite a different animal.

The Catholic religion of the 10th- 17th century was a very different one to the "Empathetic and caring" church of today.

Matyrous painful suffering was not the career choice of a few addle minded Franciscan monks, it was the expectation, and obligation of the entire population of Christendom.
Men, Women and Children did not just get together on sunday for a short prayer, a cuccumber sandwich supper and a hug the person next to you because jesus loves you session.
Before the crack of dawn your family was up and on their knees on the chappel floor for a series of grueling appeals to the mercy of a vengeful god for your miserable existence and for the henious thoughts and actions you'd no doubt succumbed to in his eyes, repeated no less than four more times throughout the day and again at midnight.
As a special treat the parents could indulge in an hour long session of self flagelation with a cat of nine tails whilst the children are being tucked into bed with bedtime stories of the horrors of hell and damnation and the sins of the flesh and disobedience. Add to this the rigorous neverending retinue of fasting, feasting , purging, abstaining and observing at a dizzying weekly pace. The deliberate routine wearing of horse hair shirts as underclothes and the constant use of corporal punishment for women and children alike. Suffering was not an abberation it was a totally acceptable normal way of life and the greatest indulgents of these lifestyles were the rich and famous, the nobility the church and the upper class. The peasantry could afford to dispense with much of this routine and get on with work and buissness as they were not under the ever present eyes of the church and their peers.
Naturally most extant armours that have survied the centuries were those of the aristocracy and elite, childrens armour and expensive commissioned pieces that should not be recycled for continuous use to the point of destruction but archived and retained for prosperity.
Life was not to be enjoyed, it was to be tolerated as a state of sin and imperfection, the only deliverance through the mercy of death at the time of God's choosing. Until that time you were to survive as an instrument of Gods bidding.

So they stuffed thier helms with horse hair had thier good woman knit an undershirt of the same and slogged off to eastern Europe, africa or the middle east to wrest the world from the infidels.
Granted rashes and festering boils and blisters to the glory of God were "au currant" and quite the in thing for any God fearing christian to sport, their deaths or the hinderence or deaths of thier horses was not. The horse was an invaluable tool for mankind to carry out Gods wishes and for that reason was more valuable than common solderie. The horse ,though brutalised through ignorance in other ways was to be comfortable, protected and unhindered in his work.
Felt for the horse's chanfron, horsehair enough to preserve life but coarse enough to instill suffering for the knight who shares the glories of Christs last hours.

Hmmmm. I just re read everything. It makes a lot of sense but Im begining to sound like a fanatic myself.

I think it is very important to understand the broad aspects of any period and the many factors that influence, when looking at isolated snapshots of the past.

I am an archeo- anthropologist by proffession and study the complete cutural context of the societies I investigate so the cause, effect and consequence is often easier for me to fathom and recognise.
One cannot truly know the content of history without its full context.
If we only use the context of the present to understand the past we are bound to create falshoods.

We could look at a sepia photo from the 1930"s of a man walking from a shop with a package wrapped in brown paper.

Your grandmother would say "its meat from the butcher."

Your husband "A can of beer from the liquor store"

Your teenage son " porno magazines"

Which do you think is most likely?

Idem fidelis servilis ex anima fratres

Well thats interesting, and I would be the last person to say that you should not look to a society to understand what they did and why they did it, but your description of Late Medieval European life and values looks like it was derived from studying the lives of suffering saints and martyrs.

As someone who trained as a historian, with an abiding respect for archaeology and it's invaluable contributions, I myself look to primary documentation regarding how things were done, in the form of sources from inventories, guild regulations, and of course extant objects. Most surviving Medieval and Renaissance liners for helmets and the like are stuffed with raw cotton or tow, and the extant late Medieval and Renaissance horse equipment I have seen that required stuffing used the same, or included grass and straw as well. The painstaking reproductions I have worn personally, in the form of helmet liners have be variously stuffed with raw cotton or tow, and are quite comfortable to wear - YMMV.

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Thankyou for reining me in. I tend to become overly zealous on a thought, alone in the wee hours. It was late and I had had one or two glasses of wine.
I think I have remembered one too many past lives under the yoke of Rome and even the good memories are tainted with the flavour of headlice, poor dentistry and oppression of expression by the church.

As an afterthought on the "cabbage & bundle of reeds" discussion. Do you know of any evidence of the use of cattail bullrush down as padding stuffing? Or goose down for that matter?

Something else to "pad" out our thought space.

Cheers