I'm soon(ish) to be moving to sunny Arizona from (rather less sunny) Britain. I see Gwen and Jeff have Chevalier not far away, but I'm quite surprised by the otherwise seemingly non-existent living history community in the West. I read that the Red Co. disbanded because it was too much like an uphill struggle to keep a LH group going in the area.

I'm very interested to hear what the problems seem to be over there.

Any explanations?

NB: It's not my intention to open any cans of worms! This forum is delightfully civil in the most part and I should hate to disrupt that, so please warn me if this is a sensitive issue for any reason.

Regards to all,

Outside of that, pre 1700 is pretty effectively owned by the Renaissance Faires, and pre 1650 by the SCA. I'm not going to go out on a plank about whether either are 'living history' or not, I'll leave that battle to someone else to fight.

As for cause, it seems that usually interest is tied directly to either a person's family history, or the ground they're living on. (Of course that doesn't cover every instance, I'm just making a general observation.) The western states of the US were the exclusive purview of the native peoples until the early 1600's, with minimal European incursions until the late 1800s. Non-natives here seem to be very cut off from their European roots, and interest in European history is therefore minimal. The European Middle Ages seems to exist on a par with complete fantasy worlds for most people out here, and I've actually met loads of people who don't seem to realize that dragons and wizards never really existed.

I imagine the lack is due to a multitude of reasons rather than just one or two. These are just observations made from where I sit.

I slipped up in not mentioning the later, American periods. I suppose the presence of cacti rather than castles on the doorstep tends to give those groups somewhat of an advantage over us medievalists!

I've been hypothesizing that maybe one area where the SCA, ECS, renfaires etc. have the edge in the US is in the freedom they grant the participants to portray whatever interests them most. I notice a lot of SCAdians pick personas from nations where their ancestors came from, as you were speaking of. Kass with her Irish persona, my fiancee with a German persona, etc. Quite where Conan fits in I'm not sure - there can't be that many Cimmerians...

I wonder whether part of the problem that groups such as the Red Co., Chevalier, Wolfe Argent etc. suffer is that people feel too constrained in their ethnic options by being Burgundians. Heck, 99% of people have probably never even heard of the Burgundians. Most people probably never get far enough to realise that Charles the Bold's army was so multi-national, though the whole "middle of the bell-shaped curve" ideal can maybe put the cabosh on that a bit (though the CoSG are very mixed).

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not criticising anyone, just observing and commenting

Successful/accurate groups usually have a strong leader with a clear vision for the group. The Red Company was phenomenally successful in its time, and aquired an international reputation for excellence while Jeff and I were at the helm. The clear vision that creates that excellence demands constraint. Members have to share the leader's vision or go somewhere else.

Those of us who have been through this are unapologetic on this point of constraint and its parallell question of exclusivity. Based on our previous experiences, Jeff and I now head up a Historical Jousting group that is more selective than any group we've ever headed before. Because of it, the US will be introduced to historical jousting at a level never before seen on this continent.

There are plenty of groups in the US that serve participants at all interest levels, from fantasy fetishists to hard core experimental archaeologists. You just need to find the one you want to play with and make the effort to do so.

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I think 'living history' requires a narrow focus by definition. If you have 14th C. Englishmen, 16th C. Irish, 8th C. 'Celts', and 15th C. Burgundians all in one group, all serving one master, it is historical live action role play rather than living history.

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I quite agree! I was trying to express an idea of, say, 1470s Burgundians, English, French, Swiss etc. all in the same place at the same time, as may have occured in the Ordnance companies, or perhaps the very mixed bag one might have found in the Holy Land during any of the Crusades, or in a 14th century condetta in Italy.

Personally I'm all for the narrow groups such as those to which many of the people on this board belong. For a very mixed group to attain the same standards of authenticity (even if their shared presence can be adequately justified) would probably require a universally phenomenal level of drive amongst its members - after all, the capacity of the people at the top to perform "quality control" becomes less the further the group is from their own specialisation. The achievements of Wolfe Argent, Chevalier etc. are outstanding, and I would hate to see those groups, or those like them, water down their standards for the sake of expansion. I don't imagine that will ever happen, thankfully, because as you say these highly successful groups have "a strong leader with a clear vision".

I suppose my dream, really speaking, is to find a way, one day in the far future, to "spread the word" of authenticity to a wider number of people. It saddens me to see so many people slip the net of the LH groups (or even anything near) and go to the anachronists in search of the same thing, which without support from the like-minded they will probably never find. To paraphrase the Moslem proverb, "If you cannot bring the masses to authenticity, you must take authenticity to the masses". Well, there's no must about it, of course.

I'm looking now at the situation as it stands, at what people maybe feel is putting others off, and trying to find a concept that might open a gateway between LH and the anachronists. Maybe with a few years "market research", and a few years more to gain some of the knowledge necessary to put such a concept into action, I'll be able to do a little something to help everyone out - send a few more of the right people in the direction of LH, and spread some of the LH ideal to those members of the anachronistic societies that would appreciate it.

As for my own destination, I shall certainly be seeking you and Jeff out in 18 months time, in the clear understanding that you take who you want. Despite what I've said above, I'm not one of these people that likes to find groups then attempt to remake them to suit me, and I am hopeful that you will find me pleasingly dedicated to the LH ideal, regardless of any other ideas I have too.

I hope I'm making some sense.

Regards,

quote:

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I wonder whether part of the problem that groups such as the Red Co., Chevalier, Wolfe Argent etc. suffer is that people feel too constrained in their ethnic options by being Burgundians.

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Actually, we don't view it as a problem. In our presentations as well as member introduction, the multi-cultural aspects of the Burgundians are expressed. Our biggest hurdle has been getting people to realize, especially in an English speaking country, that the Middle Ages happened in Europe too, not just the UK. Americans on the East Coast have a very Anglo-centric view of world history; the product of the educational system. The other problem is the "I want to play a knight on the cheap" or "a courtier".

Members of our group portray Italians, English, French, Hainaulters, Swabians, and Flemmings. Orders for pike drills are given in several languages to demonstrate command and control issues and regulations requiring commands be given in as many languages as the nationalities in a company.

We don't make apologies for having a relatively high bar and have always maintained quality of presentation over quantity of members.

Wolfe Argent also has an international reputation and it is that reputation that does not allow us to become lax in either our standards or our vision. I agree that the leader of the group has to be strong and have a clear vision. We had an issue last year that could very well have had a negative impact on our group, but things have righted themselves and we've added a few new members who have the same level of commitment to the goal.

Recently, we've added an equestrian tournament branch which will allow for lower "nobility" presentations in a tournament setting, but the kit bar is steep and is formatted to fit with Jeff and Gwen's historical jousting group.

[ 06-14-2007: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ]

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Rule #1 of any prospective new member - PLAY NICELY WITH OTHERS. Almost anything else is negotiable. Jeff and I are completely done with politics and games playing, which is one reason we are more selective than ever. Thankfully we have an absolutely fantastic group of people spread all over the world who have the same goals as we do, so things have actually gotten easier although the distances are greater.

Please look us up when you get here, the door's always open!

If you are moving to Arizona you might actually have a good time checking out some of the "Old West" types of things going on, they aren't medieval but they are a blast. I'm still trying to convince my significant other that I really need to spend a couple of grand to start Cowboy Mounted Shooting but I keep getting told I spend enough money on horse shows, ACW, ECW and the occassional SCA foray, LOL.

Again, welcome,

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It's been good to get an insight into your modes of thinking. Keep up the good work!

Gwen - I lost a lot of sleep once upon a time because of reenactment politics, so rest assured that I am as averse to the stuff as anyone can be!

Angelique - Thanks for the welcome. If time and money permit, maybe one day I shall do some "Old West" stuff. I think between horses and the middle ages I may have my hands full though!

Well after making the film the HMS Rose now renamed HMS Surprise was put in the care of the San Diego Maritime Museum.

But now the ship as fallen in to the hands of Farby Pirates of the Pacific any 18c British Navy LH types out there on the West Coast that ship needs to be retaking some one needs to take down that Black Flag and put backup the Union Jack.
www.tallshiprose.org
http://www.sdmaritime.com/contentpage.asp?ContentID=152
http://www.sdmaritime.com/ContentPage.asp?ContentID=247

Miles

Hmm, looks like a job for an 18th century backsword fencer... Hang on, I am one! Now if only I and a few of my fellow MacDonald Academy of Arms students can make Lansing next year to do the boarding party workshops, we'll have them!

Do you think we can break with LH gender roles for the capture - my fiancee's pretty useful and our friend Sigridur is very handy with a spadroon. The pirates have a woman in their midst, after all. Otherwise, I suppose they'll just have to stich the white ensign for us

Let's see the history of pirates on board Royal Navy 18c frigates I think they hang them from the yardarm, Yep that's the role they played in history.

There are documented cases of women serving on Royal Navy ships in 18th-century most were married to officers and warrant officers I do know of no documented cases of the women taking up arms, but this is a special case we are retaking the ship in the name of LH, I think you would be okay.

I’m not talking bad about the West Coast but most of the history that would support its upkeep and operation is on the East Coast and making friendship runs to the UK she was it only 500 ton auxiliary sailing vessel left for people like me to train on.

I was working on a 1812 LH kits and hope to serve on her for the 200th anniversary oh well looks like that’s not going to happen now.

Just me venting on some non-15th-century living history that I have a passion for forgive my ranting.

Miles

I'm a bit rusty with the small sword but a boarding pike I can handle as well as put a .58 caliber lead ball anywhere I want at 100 yards.