On poleaxes what about having aluminum versions made to keep the weight down and the pointy bits getting the welded on ball ends like UK spears? Also I know they are not super nice looking but what about the rubber bec’s chivalry bookshelf sells?

Also on had protection what about using gloves with thick leather on the outside like the Vikings use? They are as out of place looking as metal gauntlets on a guy in a jack.

[ 12-14-2005: Message edited by: Flonzy ]

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I had a spangenhelm on, so no.

quote:

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Originally posted by Flonzy:
I have no issue with using Del Tins. I have Del Tins, a Paul Binns, and a lutel, if any of them hits you it hurts, difference I found is the 1mm edge makes a cut and a 2mm edge breaks open the skin in a traintrack pattern, 2 lines running side by side. If we are pulling shots neither should do real harm.

On poleaxes what about having aluminum versions made to keep the weight down and the pointy bits getting the welded on ball ends like UK spears? Also I know they are not super nice looking but what about the rubber bec’s chivalry bookshelf sells?

Also on had protection what about using gloves with thick leather on the outside like the Vikings use? They are as out of place looking as metal gauntlets on a guy in a jack.

[ 12-14-2005: Message edited by: Flonzy ]

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Hi James,

I have been thinking about aluminum heads on objects like poll axes myself. It would probably be best to make try severral different angles regarding hafted mass weapons, and see which works best with the least compromise to appearance.

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I believe if you increase the weight of a sword then the pressure increase on the edge of the blade increases 1:1. So for every unit of weight you increase you get one unit of pressure increase. However narrowing the blade gives you an increase of 3 units of pressure. So it is considered safer to have thicker and slightly heavier blades that can exert less pressure than thinner blades that can exert more pressure.

I found a gentleman in West Virginia who made me a halberd head for $45 + shipping. in all it cost me $60 bucks Now, its still getting shipped out so I dont have it yet; and I SURE dont expect it to be pefefct, its the first item of this type the gentleman has made. But for $60 its worth it for me to be working with the guy to make a few prototypes and get a finished copy thats kick-ass. Once its perfect, $45 sure beats $300!!!

If you all want to contact this guy about making one with a ball welded on, one in aluminum and whatever else you want, Ill pass on his contact info. That way its economical to try out different safety mods and youre not paying $300 for something with a modification that you dont like.

OH! P.S. how long am I supposed to make the haft? Im going continental, Germany 1470's. Martin said 3-meters? Ash or Poplar, right? Is the pole 1-1/2" by 2" by 9 feet then? Can someone help me out here? We do all the woodworking at the house here.

-Jason www.GothicGermany.org

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~ Jason Banditt Adams
Illustrator for the gaming industry
www.Rogue-Artist.com

quote:

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Originally posted by Flonzy:

On poleaxes what about having aluminum versions made to keep the weight down and the pointy bits getting the welded on ball ends like UK spears?

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Flonzy, I know of only one group in the UK (Regian Anglorum) that has ball ends on the tips of its spears: The rest of us don't.

As for swords, well it is a gross generalisation to say UK swords are all heavy brutes, given that we have literally dozens of makers of weapons and as many variations of fighting (in details) a lot will be heavy. However the old days of clunky swords are moving backwards, it is not hard to get hold of a decent blade to match your strength.

Another thing to bear in mind is that in many groups the essence of safe fighting is not about the recipient of blows wearing arour, ie blows should be controlled so that an unarmoured area is hit without causing pain. This means that there is a safe benchmark from which to go up the scale in fights between individuals who have practiced etc.

This also allows a better representation of the relatively badly armoured 'average' archer (who was generally a majority soldier) get a chance to fight knowing the aim is not to bruise them.

re archery, funny as it may seem blunt shooting archery is one of the safest forms of field combat we do. It is a very safe excercise if certain controls are put in place:

Absolute limit on draw weight, 30lb is more than adequate for most situations.

Why?
well it gives you fewer chances of accidental overdrawing by over enthusiastic archers.

Also it means less sorry looking half draw at distances where a near full draw is required and looks better.

Fixed standards for the arrows, same fletchings, blunts, thickness of shafts.

Training, archery as with any other field combat activity demands practice and dedication, not talking about clout shooting with 100lb bows, but reenactment archery where the rules are different and responsibilities very clear.

No one should allow an archer on the field who has not been passed or vouched for by someone who can take responsibility.

It is not a free for all, easy number, far from it, the issues archers face are loosing arrows at targets who may or may not be paying attention and whose attention may lapse from the moment of loose to the moment of impact.

As for timed arrow swapping that it rather futile IMHO. Given that in the draw at say anything near full draw the bow arm is raised high, slightly aslant and in effect covers up a lot of the face. Also with practice and training you can draw a battle bow (30lber) with your head slightly downcast so your eyes are not facing any potential arrow.

We use 'bunny' blunts, 30lbs bow and big fletchings (not spiral flu flus), arrow injuries are thankfully rare and normally undramatic. Consider say Hastings recently with approximately 100 archers on the Norman side loosing (chef, 'loosing' not firing please ;-)), each round we did about 5 volleys, that is 500 arrows staggered over 5 minutes. There were five passes, so 2500 arrows from the Normans, how many injuries from them? None that were reported.

This is something very close to my heart as I spent four years 'captaining' WCo archers and it took a while to unlearn old habits and enforce safer ones, ie no flat shooting unless trained to do so. There is no reason why archery cannot be conducted in as realistic manner as possible and with as reduced risk as possible.

But allowing 60lb bows is pushing the safety envelope by a wide margin, woudl such a margin be allowed for edged weapons?

Also re aluminium, I recall someone years back had a ally polarm and it was prone to burring and chipping far more than steel.

I would not say any European thing is 'better' mainly because Europe is a big old place with lots of different people in it doing their own thing. Some good, some bad some indifferent. The advantage of starting somethgn from scratch is you can set the rules from the start, but also look to how it has been tried elsewhere so you cna guage what to avoid or emulate or do better. It is not a competition, we are all in this together even if we have never met.

Best of luck Bob, I take it went well, seeing as this thread is over a year old?

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Did anything ever come of ARMET?

Chris

P.S.- Not trying to start an argument over an old topic, but most British-made swords I have come across, including those from the big names such as Armour Class and Paul Binns, really are pretty close to 'crowbars'. It may be that like me until a couple of years ago, most Brits don't know what they're missing due to our market being dominated by heavier blades. My Arma Bohemia longsword, on the other hand, is stunning to look at and to handle.

Of course, I'm yet to come across a modern blunt (nor even a modern sharp) that handles anything like an original. I've had opportunities to handle all sorts of originals from as far back as the 12th century and get a feel for how they move, and with a couple of noticeable exceptions they felt alive, they wanted to move. Some felt (deceptively) as light as a butter knife, but when you began to make a cut there was a power in their movement that felt unstoppable.

Nope, nothing really happened with ARMET. Groups still tend to have their own combat methods and rules and when in Rome...play by the rules of the hosting event.

We use "sharps" and did so successfully at our event in 2004 and had one injury with a arrow blunt in 2005. The arrow was loosed on a flat trajectory and bounced off a bevor and up into the helmet. A language issue was also partly to blame for this, fleche and flesh. If you're a non-French speaker do participants really understand what is happening on the battlefield when that word is shouted in warning?

We've handled quite a few amazing blades from the 12th c on up. You're right, they feel "alive". Light and swift blade. Bob has an older Del Tin that has similar handling, but it's not quite 100%.

[ 06-18-2007: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ]

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Good one with the "fleche/flesh" problem. I suppose you'll just have to train people in advance for Canadian events.

It happens. I think there's a "event" report that has a rather lovely picture of the arrow "shiner".

ah here it is:

Mont St. Anne 2005

[ 06-19-2007: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ]

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Great "chateau"! What was it made of?

I think the fort was wooden with a façade.

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Which is most important - authenticity of material appearance, authenticity of action or authenticity of thought?

I think in the case of combat, authenticity of thought is right out - the mindset has to be modern in that situation.

The tricky balance, I would expect, is between authenticity of material appearance and authenticity of action.

The LH groups appear to lean 95% toward appearance, the only concessions being blunt weapons and rubber arrowheads. The result is that authenticity of action is generally very low - no thrusting, no flat shooting, no cuts to forearms, hands, neck or head. As has been mentioned elsewhere, many European groups don't fight mock battles, seemingly for this reason.

So far toward the other end of the scale that they're off it, the SCA have come up with a set of rules using heavy armour, batons and thrusting tips that allows reasonable authenticity of action. They don't use that to anywhere near its full potential, but I think they might have had an idea to once upon a time.

The WMA community is generally aiming for 95% authenticity of action, just pulling the blow before it lands. Authenticity of material appearance is generally ignored, although those aspects that affect action are sometimes incorporated.

What I am trying to get to the root of is this - How important to the LH community is the authenticity of the combat itself?

As a historical fencer, I hate the "star" system with a passion. I accept that it is a safe way to get a complete rookie wearing nought but a helmet out onto the field without endangering anyone, and I also accept that to the average member of the public it looks like "swordfighting". The telegraphing in many systems I view likewise. However, the same logic applied to clothing would not be acceptable to anyone here, I'm sure!

Chris

Coming from the museum POV, we are interpreting to an audience that has only a passing familiarity with the topic. So, correct appearance is more important than the others. In this setting, at least where we perform, we do not do first person. This is for the sake of the audience, besides, in order to do it correctly, I'd have to speak in Picard.

Next is action. We don't use the "star" typically. When in Rome adopt the method. However, when members of our group spar, it's usually free form and with someone they trust. Just like some of the folks in the equestrian circle we run with, they will not engage with an unfamiliar rider without first seeing them ride and handle a weapon. This is for the safety of the horse as much as the rider. Action can also be impressions of manners and "social status and interaction". We Americans don't pull of the RANK thing to well. I know that the SCA has such a hierarchy, not being a member, I cannot say if it gives an accurate impression.

Lastly, we are modern people. I don't think we can achieve an authentic mindset.

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Sorry for the delay in replying, have been in hospital unexpectedly.

I quite agree that as modern people we cannot achieve an accurate mindset, and certainly I would think that in the case of museum demos first person has many problems that are often best avoided. Like Picard! Although, I did once as a kid visit an enormous LH site in Britain called Kentwell, an Elizabethan manor house with associated trades, and that was all done in first person to surprisingly good effect.

As you say, social interaction is action too (I was just focussing on the combat here as this is the ARMET combat thread). All of the moving, speaking aspect is what I'm calling action - what differentiates us from waxworks. The great thing about social interaction is that it is generally not dangerous to perform accurately. Combat, on the other hand, is a pain in that there is an accuracy limit imposed by our unwillingness to wound one another!

I'm glad you've mentioned museum work done "out of character". I wonder if there is a place for inobtrusive modern face protection in such a situation. That's the main point, really, that I've been trying to head for in discussing this. Looking at it from the three areas discussed, of mindset, appearance and action:

Mindset: Negative - inauthentic item being worn.
Positive - able to act more correctly.

Appearance: Negative - clearly inauthentic item.
Positive - None

Action: Negative - Can take some time to get used to a mask.
Positive - Allows horizontal cuts to head, descending cuts to shoulder/neck, thrusts to face, punches with hands/weapons.

Taken in combination with at least a strong jack and solid protection for the knees and groin, along with either steel gauntlets or the rather dubious heavy/padded leather gauntlets, you have a set of kit that allows almost all necessary actions in combat while not requiring any more equipment than that of a moderately well equipped halberdier, or at a push an archer.

I'm not saying I would favour the use of a standard fencing mask! What I am thinking of is an item much more like 19th Century masks - protecting only the face with a relatively open mesh (the hexagonal mesh is great!). Painted a dull mid-grey they would be very inobtrusive compared to a standard mask and could be fitted much closer to the face, resting on some very light padding on the forehead and under the chin. An open salet or anything similar would easily cover everything else. Wirecloth is easily obtainable in all different sizes for safety purposes.

I acknowledge that I'm being very much the "optimistic, unrealistic, cluless newbie", but thought I'd throw an idea around.

I'm glad to hear that Wolfe Argent aren't particularly into the star system - I think it's a real curse of the UK scene that the US could do with avoiding whilst things are still young. How are you managing safety of the face while you're sparring? I'm no stranger to doing drills involving cuts to the head whilst not wearing a mask, but that's been with a singlestick, not steel. Are you just avoiding the head?

I'm actually speaking of this not in the name of safety, as such, but in the name of authenticity. Cuts/thrusts to the face and side of the head are beyond merely "unsafe" without face protection - they're nigh on impossible, and thus anything approaching authentic combat is likewise nigh on impossible. I'm inclined to think that LH groups generally consider accurate combat far less important than almost anything else. If speaking in Modern English is an acceptable compromise to allow the audience to understand, then maybe other openly acknowledged compromises have their place too.

Not a criticism, just a point of difference.

Slow motion is used to work a sequence. The audience is informed as to what is happening, and then if there is room to safely perform a fight sequence, a full speed demo is given.

We usually refer folks to the great hall where various members of the sword guild, who have practiced sequences give demonstrations of technique; usually in full or partial armour, but it depends on the techniques and century being depicted. Sometimes they demonstrate "blouse fighting". But they are attired in proper clothing. Though when demonstrating outside the museum, they assume modern clothing.

As always, practice makes perfect. Eye contact is key.

We do make some alterations in order to protect our friends. No thrusts to the face, EVER.

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I think that needs expanding on for clarity though, there are two different remits for fighitng

1 - one on one with people who have been trained to the same WMA/EMA (or other) standards, which includes head attacks and their defences.

2 - 'battles' often with people you do not know using highly compromised maneuvers to aid unit control. So you iron out the most risky actions, ie head (knes etc) shots and rely on the very simple system. I don't think any groups claims its 'battle' fighting style is anything like realistic, or at least not any one with more than a few seasons under them.

So what you get is for 'demo' fighting is an increase in people who are practising WMA/EMA, knowing full well that it is only for demo or for free fighitng between them.

Weapons - there are as many heavy clunky metal clubs as there are decent half way measures between proper weight originals without the blade thickness - it depends on who you buy from and what you can afford. I have a St George armour falchion, based on the wakefield, I have quite weak wrists but can use this weapn comfortably, it is slighlty over weight but not by a huge amount.

I think altering authentic armour to meet the requirements of authentic fighting is not productive and then you lose one set of 'authentic' values. I would rather the 'safe' battles with people's kit looking excellent and then 'proper' fighting between individuals in their excellent armour as demos. Mainly because the battles are not competetive, we know who wins and that any 'proper' fighting is lost on the public who are the main providers (by dint of being fee paying) of our venues.

Also there is littel by way of universal regulation, there are two umbrella bodies for WOTR with similar but not identical standards and not all WOTR groups are in either, some are in both.

Anyone who did hastings will probably say they had a good fight, and they were not aiming for heads and were using quite strict combat techniques. Flonzy?

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Having fenced in all sorts of shoes from different periods, I know what you mean about freedom of movement! Leather soled turnshoes are a delight.

I suppose if you are performing practiced sequences then face protection is not such an issue, though it's a shame to lose the cuts and thrusts to the face, in my opinion. I am of course coming at this from a different direction, being first and foremost a historical fencer.

Mr. Kubbery, a good point. If near 100% accuracy is possible in one area, then I suppose it makes sense to put that as your top priority.

Your comment regarding an SCAer coming straight through an SCA helm with a thrust reminds me - if they'd had easy access to rattan in the Middle Ages they'd never have developed the pollaxe. It seems to have quite ridiculous penetrative power, particularly in untrained hands...

Gregory, you make a similar point to Mr. Kubbery regarding the loss of "one set of 'authentic' values". I concede.

I must disagree, however, that authentic fighting should take a back seat because it is lost on the general public. I think that if anything the general public can appreciate authentic fighting more easily than just about anything else. I find an accurate representation of combat often speaks for itself whereas many things need detailed explanation. Watching reenactments in the UK when I was a kid, I saw nothing to dispel the myth that western medieval combat was a crude brawl using heavy, clunky weapons. If the star system is indeed the only safe way to fight 'battles', then maybe the continental reenactors are right and we shouldn't be fighting them at all. The most interesting reenactments for me were those where a few highly knowledgeable people really engaged the audience - one demonstration by a Roman group sticks particularly well, despite no fighting at all. Personal opinion, of course.

"I must disagree, however, that authentic fighting should take a back seat because it is lost on the general public."

I menat only in terms of the battles, not actual one on ones or fights between people who train to fight freestyle and authentically, that is a good thing. The battles are never going to represent much, they are really for the players, the compromises and lack of accurate information in tactics alone makes it for a very bad rough guess at best.

"Watching reenactments in the UK when I was a kid, I saw nothing to dispel the myth that western medieval combat was a crude brawl using heavy, clunky weapons. "

Yes and I would agree that this still seems the case, but 'battles' - a term I use most loosely is nothign more than a rough sketch, performance even.

But the battles are as you know comprised of a diverse bunch of people, some of whom are practioners of the sword arts but forgoe that pleasure for a massed fight. A compromise of fun and historicity.

"The most interesting reenactments for me were those where a few highly knowledgeable people really engaged the audience - one demonstration by a Roman group sticks particularly well, despite no fighting at all"

Ermine St Guard perchance? excellent.

"Personal opinion, of course."

likewise.

Did you grow up here or were yo along term visitor? etc

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Funny, isn't it, that the battles seem to be the least audience-centric part of the whole thing? That's the advertised event, most often - the crowd-puller, yet it always seemed to me to be the anti-climax.

A very diverse group of people indeed!

I actually can't remember who the Romans were, it was a long time ago. I'm sure that it wasn't the Ermine Street Guard though - there was just the one contubernium plus a Persian auxiliary archer.

I'm a Brit born and bred, from Cheshire originally but I've been in Edinburgh the past couple of years. Soon, with luck, to be heading to Arizona. Regrettably between my job and trying to finish my Open University degree re-enactment is somewhat on the back burner at present. I made a big effort when I first arrived up here but was sadly let down by a society that was more of a social club and didn't seem to want to actually get to events. I eventually fled for good when politics reared its ugly head. So I'm sort of hanging around at the moment waiting to get to States and make a new start on it all.

I'm guessing you're in the north of England. Don't quite know why I think that.