After Medievals du Mont St. Anne, and working with Les Compagnons D'Armes and La Compagnie des Archers de Frontenac, here is a set of tentative rules we can all play together with, and have a reasonable expectation of what to expect. Please guys, add your two cents, to see if I am interpreting this correctly or not.

Hand to hand combat, with sword and other hand weapons. Steel blunts, with rounded points, of no narrower width than the normal blade width of a Del Tin blade are to be employed. For the sake of unscripted combat, the standard target area is the "star" as used by Les Compagnons D'Armes, excluding the lower arms and legs from the joint down, with the targets armour as the primary target. That would be head, (straight down - a horizontal or angled cut is forbidden), either shoulder at a slight angle, the torso or upper arm at the horizontal, and the upper leg in an ascending cut. If these areas are unprotected, then a blow to that area is to be avoided. Thrusting is to only be allowed at an armoured targets torso.

Half swording, other aspects of historic swordsmanship such as grappeling, are to be allowed by pre-arrangement with specific opponents, assuming a basic level of competance, to be judged by a person of experience prior to a combat. Other than by pre-arrangement, such techniques are forbidden.

Weapons used in combat must be inspected by the seargent at arms, or other person designated responsible for the task prior to a scenario.

Minimum protection required by participants in hand to hand combat will consist of a helmet, padded jack or doublet, and gauntlets (how about heavy leather gauntlets for someone using something like a buckler, and a falchion or other sword with knuckle guard?)

Archery Combat archery is to be undertaken with bows of 50 or less pounds draw weight, with a prefered range of 30-45 lbs for hand drawn bows, and no more than 50 lbs for crossbows. The bows are to be employed in indirect fire roles only, that is, in plunging fire. Preferably, the archery will be in volley fire, with the master bowman giving a lound verbal command to loose, and the recieving side to give warning "arrows" or "fleche" at the same moment, so that the recieving side can incline their heads downward in good time. Possibly, the firing side should wave or flourish their standard or pennon, to give a visual aide that they are about to loose.

*Possibly a force under fire should keep eyes/head inclined downward until near contact, and archery should cease X yards/meters (10? 20?) before contact

Indirect archery should be tested in position, prior to scenario, to avoid overshooting. (perhaps a discrete marker can be placed to aide archers with aim?)

Blunts ought be on the order of the standard blunts made by Kenneth Meade, that is, a shaft of light wood, with the largest rabbit blunt tip available, fitted with a foam cap, enclosed in a leather cover.

Archery against horses is prohibited.

Direct fire in special circumstances, against fully armoured targets is allowed, by prearrangement before a scenario.

Gunpowder artillery and hand weapons Shall be handled as per standard 18th & 19th century North American reenactment, with safe fire zones as per the standard

spears & pollarms I'm inclined to use heavily rebated spearheads for spears, and hafts alone on lengthy pikes - how is it done for ECW 17th century reenactment? Light short bladed weapons, like glaives or couses could be used for cutting actions, so long as properly rebated. How do we handle halberds, pollaxes, and bec de corbins guys?

cavalry May engage cavalry as they are so trained. May engage trained infantry (in example, as per infantry competant as IJA footmen), by arrangement by scenario. I just want to avoid the potential disaster of untrained infantry panicing around horses, or doing something stupid to cause a potential mess, a' la the "King of Flanders" (those at Mont St Anne know of whom I write). Cavalry vs. cavalry engagements may include steel blunts rebated as per the normal rules, or frangible lances as per IJA rules and the sort they use at Leeds, and pre-arrangement.

Pre-arranged Scenarios are to be discussed at a staff meeting of officers comprising all those commanding any body of troops, and their immediate subordinates, and are to be passed on to their respective commands prior to any engagement. It is the responsibility of those officers commanding a body of troops to insure that their command knows and understands their role in a scenario, and doews not deviate from it. Tacticals are to be discussed amongst officers of each side, once a scenario organiser informs the officers of the scenario and the conditions of victory.

Okay, those are some of my basic thoughts. Let me all know what you think, and don't be shy. We can modify things as we go along, until they are solidified and agreed to.

[ 10-18-2005: Message edited by: chef de chambre ]

[ 10-19-2005: Message edited by: chef de chambre ]

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"Steel blunts, with rounded points, of no narrower width than the normal blade width of a Del Tin blade are to be employed."

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Originally posted by Brent E Hanner:
Why not use the same standard used in the UK?

Brent

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Because they use crowbars shaped like a sword

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Cheers

Nobody is saying you *can't* use 2mm blunts, but the rules as I have written them thus far allow for the more historical lighter blunts.

Why force crow-bars on us, when we have the opportunity to go one better from the begining? Lighter blunts are even making an impact on the UK scene.

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It is simple physics. If Del Tins are .5mm edge like I've read in one review that they are then a 3 lb 10.2 oz 44" long 2mm edge blunt is safer then a 3 lbs 10 oz 47 3/8 inches long Del Tin.

They have been fighting for over 5 years with a system that doesn't have strict rules, and no injuries were suffered through all those years.

You get your sword from a trusted supplier, you get it inspected by the marshall before using it, you use it properly according to the training you have received (mandatory for live steel combat), you spar with the group before getting on the field, you pre-arrange your fights with your opponent, you realize that you are not really fighting for your life, and things should be fine.

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It is simple physics. If Del Tins are .5mm edge like I've read in one review that they are then a 3 lb 10.2 oz 44" long 2mm edge blunt is safer then a 3 lbs 10 oz 47 3/8 inches long Del Tin.

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Can you clarify exactly what you are saying here. I've read it three times and still don't get what you're driving at. What exactly are you comparing? Two del tins or a del tin and a different blunt?

The only issue we had with the past event involved an improper blunt on an arrow. That and most of the guys in the fort were not safe to begin with. They needed a minder to keep them from doing stupid things.

We've used blunts like Bob's Del Tin for years without incident. I think we've had a very safe weapons record with all groups that we've worked with, so I don't think that somehow the UK way is safer than what we are proposing. We are not neophytes when it comes to WMAs.

Nobody was hurt in this melee. Bob's using a del tin, Bernard is using something akin to the standard UK reenactment blunts.

One of the chief difference is that Bob and Bernard practiced with each other before the melee. Considering they'd never sparred before, they felt it was a good idea. Other folks did as well. Practice and understanding the systems are what makes this work. Any type of weapon, blunt or otherwise, is dangerous in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it.

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Originally posted by Fire Stryker:
[B] Can you clarify exactly what you are saying here. I've read it three times and still don't get what you're driving at. What exactly are you comparing? Two del tins or a del tin and a different blunt?
[B]

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Two different swords. One a Del Tin and the other a Paul Chen.
http://www.myarmoury.com/review_dt5140.html http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c389.html

Hugo, what are the thickness of the edges of the swords used by your group and what is the typical amount of armour worn by each member of your group?

Here are my thoughts on Bob's combat rules for intergroup combats at events.

We all have to keep in mind that these will be used in melees that may easily include 30 fighters. Safety is of the utmost importance. And we should make all the necessary efforts to try and sparr a few relax rounds with our different opponents before the main battle. Look at it as training the soldiers...

Our minimum safety guidelines for training or battling should be: metal helmet, metal hand protection (gantelets or mitons) and a padded doublet or gambeson.

ARCHERY: trajectory tests should be conducted before the event or battle as indirect fire tends to overshoot the target. Plunging volleys is preferrable. Maybe to avoid the pygmee effect of the arrowheads covered by foam and leather we could simply implement a ''don't look up'' rule until your at close quarters (the archers will by then have stopped shooting at the unit). Obviously closed face helmets or visored helmet will be or great help for added safety.

HAND TO HAND(swords and other bladed weapons): The star system idea seems quite good though I think the thrust or stabbing attack should be made in a downward trajectory. We will avoid any deviation or bounces that could lead to a head injury.

Also, although using the star, we should concentrate on narrower arcs of attack when striking blows. Lets not forget we sometimes will be tightpacked and hardpressed in a melee.

HAND TO HAND(bludgeoing weapons): these should have any points rounded and dulled. I think that they should be preferably used against an oponent that has a shield for a maximum show effect and for obvious safety reasons.

SHORT POLEARMS (pollaxe, couteau de breche, halberd, etc.): Any points should be rounded especially on the hooked portion. In such against non-polearms wielding opponent, they should concentrate on thrusting and slashing from above. Side slashes tend to be quite wide when ''arming the attack''. Parrying with the haft or the blade is correct. Counter attacks with the butt of the weapon should be directed at the lower shoulder or the waist to avoid the historically classic shot to the face...

When trying to hook we should aim at either arms or lower leg if protected. Avoid shoulders and neck !!
Polearm detachment versus polarm detachment should mainly be downwards stabbing attacks until the order is given to abandon and draw swords.

LONG POLEARMS (swiss pike, etc.): I don't think we're there yet as these weapons required many hours of training to be used effectively and safely....

As for the rest of the first draft rules I agree... Special feints or moves should be pre-arranged at first then when comfort and trust will be there for all we can let ourselves go a bit

Of course cavalry rules have to be worked on but we had a great experience at Mont-Ste-Anne and rules can definitely be set in place.

thanks

On my behalf I can only explain how to engage in pike formations and it takes practice for it to be safe on a constant basis. It can be done though a close formation I have seen it and have been explained how to do it with safety and good show. But to respect the chain of command I will run it through our group before showing anyone else and to make sure it is within the parameters acceptable for the Compagnons d'Armes.
BTW I am going to go see for the swiss pikes next weekend ( quality and price) they will be 16ft long / 35mm diameter in ash or in peuplier ( sry can't remember the english word). These are both the traditionnel wood used for pikes.

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Hugo, what are the thickness of the edges of the swords used by your group and what is the typical amount of armour worn by each member of your group?

Brent[/B]

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Never really measured, some I have no idea (don't fight with sword myself yet).

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Originally posted by Brent E Hanner:
Because they have a record of relative safety, which I am completely unconvinced that a signifigantly thinner blunt is safe.

It is simple physics. If Del Tins are .5mm edge like I've read in one review that they are then a 3 lb 10.2 oz 44" long 2mm edge blunt is safer then a 3 lbs 10 oz 47 3/8 inches long Del Tin.

Brent

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Hi Brent,

If you want to begin discussing physics, it can most reasonably be argued a lighter blunt is always safer, assuming the blunt is well made and properly hardened and tempered.

You are a very intellegent man, are you going to argue that it is safer to strike someone with a 6lb metal club, as opposed to a 3lb metal club? The vast number of 2mm edged weapons are of significantly lower quality, relying on their mass rather than the quality of the steel itself to hold together. Have you seen and handled some of the normal UK blunts? They are not very impressive.

A sword with less mass and better balance will be easier to control, to redirect if something goes wrong (you notice the person you are sparring with does not notice your incoming blow), you can more readily re-direct it, and to recover or withdraw a blow.

While the UK combat reenactment system works, to the best of my knowledge, it was the first such set of formalized rules for blunt sparring, and frankly, they erred significantly regarding width of blade - ask a competant UK sword manufacturer with wide experience in making both quality blunts and sharps - try asking the fellows at Armour Class.

We would be foolish to adopt a system wholescale, and not refine it, or remove known flaws in it.

If you want a safety record, try looking at the interpretive department at Leeds, they have been using Del Tins (daily) for over a decade, and I know of no accident suffered due to blade edge width. We have used ours for nearly a decade, with no problem yet.

You arent going to find a blade with a 2mm edge of the same weight as a blade of the same length with a .5mm blade, or a 1mm blade, or a 1.5mm blade. that .5 mm of less blade makes for a significant decrease in weight, as much as 20-25%. A lighter blade that is well made is safer than a mediocre blade of greater mass.

I myself prefer swords that handle closely to originals, and I think that swords of greater mass, and less balance are potential disasters in the hands of poorly trained individuals. Right now, everyone who has participated in any of these skirmishes have a reasonable level of competancy - as the hobby grows, we must consider potential lower capabilities, although I believe that needs to be addressed by individual groups enforcing basic levels of training and competance, before allowing people to swing blades, rather than assuming the lowest common denominator.

Right now, we and les Compagnons and Archiers de Frontenac have a great deal of flexibility on how we can fight together, and I am not sure I am willing to give up that flexibility to accomidate an untrained man - far better they go to an event, and train to basic competance under the guidance of an experience person, before setting them loose on the field - give them a position until they are competant where they will not engage hand-to-hand.

We are small enough so we can arrange these rules so that our combats do not have some of the a-historical drawbacks seen elsewhere, and we should take the opportunity to work through them.

If it turns out the majority believe .5mm is too narrow, then I will gladly get a wider blade, but if that is the case, then my argument would be to consider 1mm-1.5mm, rather than UK crowbars.

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I am contemplating having Armour Class make me a blunt with a 1mm wide edge, as a test sample to see how it would work.

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Originally posted by Brent E Hanner:
Can we get numbers on this.

"Steel blunts, with rounded points, of no narrower width than the normal blade width of a Del Tin blade are to be employed."

Brent

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According to Fulvio Del Tin, the blade widths of his swords average 1mm, and he has made them to 1.5mm on request. Just an FYI. That would make the minimum blade edge width 1mm.

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:
Hi Brent,

If you want to begin discussing physics, it can most reasonably be argued a lighter blunt is always safer, assuming the blunt is well made and properly hardened and tempered.

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I'd recomend you do the math before you say that. Your reason and Newton don't agree.

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Right now, we and les Compagnons and Archiers de Frontenac have a great deal of flexibility on how we can fight together, and I am not sure I am willing to give up that flexibility to accomidate an untrained man

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Then have your fun at your events.

Brent

How much fast, hard hitting, un-choreographed combat with steel swords against guys you have never met have you guys done?

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Cheers