i'm really not worried about popping through anyones armour; i really believe that whole sheild thing was a fluke at such a low poundage. what worries me are the arrows that glance off into the fleshy parts. plus noone has talked about the real danger of having arrows shatter or break on impact adding a whole new twist on things.

daniel

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Db

For infantry, hand-to-hand fighting we are talking rebated steel. What edge thickness? Regarding the weights, you can make them correct, with a small sacrafice in look (which I spose you already have) such as widening the fullers, putting in a shallower diamond, ect, ect. I would be vary wary of anything less than 2mm, and some people have up to 5mm. I consider 2mm safe. Some swords, such as Del Tinns would be ousted however (ask Glen was it?)

Regarding target areas, armpits to knees are obviously in. Some target areas are below the nipple line, until it was pointed out that on some older members (like Sven) this would stretch to the waist

I cannot forsee any difficulty in upper arms, though I do have opposition to the shoulder. I depends what armour is being used.

I also think head shots are necissary for any attempt at realistic looking fighting, as well as being safe. My head always looked like this Vertical head shots would be the starting point.

Some groups disallow thrusts, and I can see their reasoning, as they are liable to skip, however I do not think there is too much worry here.

So no we come to the contentious points, forarms and lower legs.

Also, while I am discussing headshots, I would also like to point out that Grey Co. (that is the Grey Company in Oz) fight very light and take a shot to the head from any angle. All Grey Co are ugly, but once again, I do not think it is due to face injuries. It would scare the living daylights out of me, but they pull it off OK.

So, our group does forarms and lower legs, with rules. Spear thrusts to the lower legs are not done too them (as this does reeeally nasty things to your knee), but instead is more of a slash in a thrusting motion, if that makes any sense. The tip goes to one side of the leg, and the blade contacts the side.

In our group, lower legs are done to the side or back. I find that this does not limit the fighting style much at all.

Plastic protection (before you hurt me, that is hidden protection under clothing) is worn on the lower legs usually, though I usually don't worry.

Forearms are best done with vanbraces or hidden protection, and I would say just as lower legs are vital for spear men, so are these for swords men. This really changes the fighting style. Think of what would happen to buckler work if forearms were out?

I too have been in contact with a few European reenactors, Troupe de Morte of the Medieval Siege Society, my pen-pal Edward Jackson. It appears they have different combat guidelines for different groups. For instance, their Wars of the Roses fighting is very much like any other reenacting ala American Civ War. You march out, you take the guy across from you, dance around with a flourish of non-lethal skill and someone "takes a hit" and plays dead. However, their Viking reenactments are more hard-core and injuries tend to be commonplace.

My 2 cents, with the aid of my Euro friends:

Taking a Hit: When dieing, do not "lay starfish" with your arms and legs outstretched. Instead, drop to your knees, play weak and make your way out of the thick of battle, toward "wounded lines" or just a part of the field not being trounced. Laying all spread out is asking for 400lbs of meat n metal to step on you or land on you.

Minimum requirements for armour: I agree on all of that. Helms or equivilent head protection, Some sort of hand protection, and a padded jack. I would however, add that they have recommended to me that people also wear elbow protection, if not elbow and knees. This is as simple as "cricket padding"(??) worn beneath the jack ( I guess skater gear is about the same?).

I need to disagree on allowing any sort of head shot. Without proper face and throat protection mandatory, we are just asking for too much trouble. Where we are not requiring mandatory tourney barriers of above-waist we should not impose head-legal shots. Where they would be OK in a tourney governed by full head protection, they make sense. So I must encourage neck and above be right out.

I also agree on getting the recuits used to fighting without any torso armour besides a jack. This helps keep shots pulled and relatively light. This should not discourage the use of armour on the field of battle however. It should be C.O.s responisbility to see their troops are comfortable fighting before an engagement.

Polarms are a neccesity I agree: They hold them with alternate hand-holds. E.I.: The hand nearest the body holds it with palm up, the hand farthest down the shaft near the head holds it palm DOWN. this helps keep the polearm from glancing off of armour/shields/whatever and heading for the neack or head. Regarding the plugs on the tips, I hadn't gotten that far in my conversations; but it all sounds good!

Listen, I am not berating anyone and am only trying to aid the gneral idea with some of the information I have obtained on my own. I also have not read every individual post on the thread, so I sincerely apologize if these point have been brought up.

I hope I have helped and I would very much like to continue to contribute to a forum of agreed upon rules.

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~ Jason Banditt Adams
Illustrator for the gaming industry
www.Rogue-Artist.com

In general it is conducted using low poundage bows, typically no more than 30 lb draw weight.

Arrows are light (cedar as it happens) large fletched, ie untrimmed wide parallel feathers plus rubber 'bunny' blunts.

The bunny blunts are originally for shooting small game with but are great for shooting your friends with. They are socketed on and are about half an inch in dia. on the flat surface.

Methods
and this is more crucial in some ways than the actual materials.

Shooting at distance is safest as trajectories for low poundage bows are higher so the arrows drop rather than come in flat.

The targets shoudl not be gawping up at arrows as they fall as they can hurt.

However archer to archer shooting is more risky as both parties are shooting at the same trajectories and at the same time. I must admit I ran an archery unit for a few years and we shot at each other a lot and i cannot recall any facial injuries. practice and vigilance makes you safer.

Shorter range shots in general are conducted at less than full draw as trajectories are flatter. Suggest that archers have strict competency training before undertaking shooting at each other.

But what can be done with great effect and no damage is the flat shooting of fully harnessed (assuming closed face helms of some sort) troops, low bows will cause no damage and the sight is somethign to behold. We used to do this to show the speed of shooting that could be achieved by a relatively small group of bowmen.

Lots and lots of practice.

In my experience the danger points are:

being shot at from below when on a battlement, the arrow trajectory although high is flat when coming at your downwards pointing face.

Shooting at people who do not know you are shooting at them, in most cases every one is a target on the field and should be aware.

Cracked arrows, they get trampled on and get broken so any doubtful ones get snapped in two.

Post battle clean up, again with arrows and bow strings, mud damages them and they then become dangerous.

Lack of archer commanders, these guys should command and not shoot. it is up to them to check their men's ongoing capabilities and safety practice so when on the field eyes on the enemy and on your archers.

Also very important is to make the distinction between safe human shooting and target shooting. I have seen one person trying to target shoot the same way as he was shooting his mates, but was wondering why his arrows kept over shooting. We nipped that in the bud before any damage was done.

Please bear in mind that the above is by no means definitive nor specific to any group but a general approach by many WOTR societies both past and present.

Shooting at humans is a fun thing, but it calls for vigilance and no small amount of training. it is as needful of practice as sword fighting or bill fighting.

And if conducted at certain distances can at least give a flavour to the general public. it also makes a good opportunity to actually show the public what real arrows should look like.

happy shooting

ps sorry i didn't realise there were more entries so forgive any repetition of previous posters.

There was no real reference to 'long bows' in england just bows.

Also 'long bows' are seen in a few non-english paintings and of a non-english subject.

Oh and for you archers out there, since when do we 'fire' our arrows, only when cold or when burning down a building.

Shooting or loosing please.

[ 11-25-2004: Message edited by: gregory23b ]

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I can't say they do unless shot with a high draw weight bow and shot against an unyielding target. remember armour in the fifteenth is meant to deflect not absorb, so a low poundage bow will do little to the arrows.

But the nature of shooting people with blunts in general does not make that happen. ie the high dropping trajectories.

But i would advise that bought arrow shafts are used rather than home made dowel ones as they are made for purpose.

Ok so cedar may not be authentic but it keeps the mass of the arrow down and therefore the impact is reduced too.

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